Why do computers rot the brain?

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nradov once bubbled...


Geez, where are you people getting your information? You seem to have bought into every old wive's tale in diving. The reality is that the methods George recommends have been tested and gradually refined on lots of divers over many thousands of dives with results consistently superior to the "normal way". It's not like George came down from the planet Krypton with magical deco powers. If you had been reading the mailing lists I mentioned earlier you would know this. Those methods will work for anyone who is in reasonably good shape and has no circulatory system shunts, and divers who don't meet those requirements can't count on getting consistently good results regardless of what profiles they follow.

By the way, for short dives the profiles that George recommends actually involve more deco time than the "normal way", not less. I just thought I'd mention that since some people have gotten the wrong idea that we are always trying to shorten deco.

I have read much if not all of what GI has to say about decompression. Other than the fact that I think he is a little vague on how to determin the length of the shallow stops, alot of it seems to make sense and I'm sure it works for the dives they are doing. However, the WKPP is not the first group to develope "rule of thumb" decompression procedures. In fact, there have been many, going all the way back to the very beginning of scuba. One of the problems with them is that what works for one group of divers doing one type of dive has at times bent and killed other divers doing other types of dives.

I also realize that no model that we now have accurately predicts what is heppening in a divers body. However, the model is an attempt to model a system. Once we show that the predictions of the model are reliable under the range of conditions we are interested in we have something usable. Some of the models in use have had fairly extensive testing (using some sample of the population over some range of profiles)and have been used by thousands of divers over tens of thousands of dives in just about any environment and profile imaginable.

My concern is this, When a "rule of thumb" model dramatically differs from a model with significant testing and use behind it there is a big question left that isn't so easy to answer. As far as I know the WKPP methods, in many ways, don't match RGBM, VPM beulmen or any other. I'm not talking about little things like lengthiening a switch stop or shortening the stop before a gas switch. I'm talking about big things like assuming your clean and ready to go 30 minutes after a dive and no allowances need to be made for a repetative dive. What about repetative dives over multiple days. I can't help but think there are many variations in profiles and divers under which these methods and assumptions have not been tested, at least not to a statistically significant degree. Keep in mind that when you say it is proven over thousands of dives, if indeed it has been that many, thats nothing. Now, if these divers are too much alike and the dives are too much alike then the number of dives is totally irrelevant because it is then more like testing one diver on one profile. Other models have been proven over many times that over a wider range of profiles and a wider range of divers.

The number of different profiles I have decompressed from and the number of methods I have tested doesn't qualify me to say what will work and what won't. I am certainly interested in hearing what results other divers have had with the WKPP methods and under what conditions. To believe that the WKPP found something that will work better under all conditions than the many scientists who have worked on this problem over the last couple hundred years and missed with all their testing defies common sense. A perfect example of my concern is the assertion that previous dives can be ignored. this is in contradiction to every model or theory out there as far as I know. How did BRW and Baker miss that one? Maybe it is true but it defies everything we think we know about the behavior of gasses in tissue.

May I ask what your personal experience is and to what extent you have tested these methods and under what conditions?
 
This is turned out to be quite a thread.

Its gone from use the tables because computers rot your brain....to no they don't....to I don't use tables....I use heuristics. Or something like that.

It is my understanding that the deco tables in wide use today are based on the latest widely accepted scientific findings, based on theories, tests, and observation. RGBM being the latest one. I realize new experimental theories and studies take a while to be adequately studied and tested. If and when, after much scrutiny, it is widely accepted to be better than existing dogma it becomes ready for prime time supplanting existing norms.

nradov,

The reality is that the methods George recommends have been tested and gradually refined on lots of divers over many thousands of dives with results consistently superior to the "normal way".

Considering that the incidence of DCS with current tables is so small, even on the general population. (I've read as much as 1 in 10,000 incidence rate, could be wrong) You need a very large sample base to make any type of credible analisys. Do you guys have enough data samples for a valid comparison to the current tables? Is the scientific community aware of your findings? How do they feel?

Now tell the truth or I'll have to ask Dr. Deco. :jester:
 
Continued from las post...

nradov,

Can you speak to Georges claim that reverse profiles are the way to go? BRW says just the oposit, especially when it comes to technical dives, and has said so on this board. Where is his mistake?

Not to be too blunt, but it is my understanding that some members of the WKPP are or at least were on a first name basis with the local chamber operators. Indeed it seems that they came up with a method that appears to work for the dives they are doing through trial and error. IMO, that in no way implies a greater understanding of the phisics and phisiology involved than what modern science has to offer. Just because what seems to work under a given set of conditions doesn't mean that the assumption about why it works are valid. Also, it indication that it will work under a different set of conditions.

It is my understanding that there is a significant difference between what GUE teaches and what the WKPP does. Is that correct and if so why?

I have taken the method as described in GI's papers on the WKPP site and matched them against the published profiles from one of the dives done by George a and JJ (on the same site) and they didn't seem to match. Can you explain why? I'm not trying to put you on the spot but I have been wondering about that and you seem well schooled in GI's methods.
 
AquaTec once bubbled...
i do not see any public documentation of the development of your procedures, or even public mention of what you do...its all a big secret.....i wonder why

There is no big secret, nothing is being hidden from you. As I told you before, everything is documented in the archives of the Quest and Techdiver mailing lists. Techdiver is free and Quest costs a whole $30. Step up and pet the pony.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I have read much if not all of what GI has to say about decompression.

Mike you put into words so well what i am thinking.
I wish i could express myself in words so well.

i think you are right on the point with this post and the next one you followe up with
 
nradov once bubbled...


There is no big secret, nothing is being hidden from you. As I told you before, everything is documented in the archives of the Quest and Techdiver mailing lists. Techdiver is free and Quest costs a whole $30. Step up and pet the pony.

aren't quest and techdiver acually something like this board. a billboard or email circle.

if so i would not qualify it as anything worthy.

i was thinking published in the general means of a paper or manual which can then be researched by people much smarter than me, and verified, justified or what ever. nuch like the other theories are
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Mike,

I am not going to bother with responding directly because at that point we would just be arguing and I don't think anything is being learned. All I have tried to do in this thread is introduce everyone to a superior method for handling open water dives. The real world experiences of my buddies and I indicate it works great. But if you don't want to believe me then go ahead and dive however you want, I don't care.

If you have a problem with understanding the deco research done by the WKPP I recommend you take it up with them directly. All of the key contacts are listed on the web site and they are usually happy to share information with those who have a sincere interest. As for what GUE is currently teaching, I have no idea. If this issue concerns you I would again recommend you take that up directly with GUE. I can't speak on behalf of either organization.

And now I'm going to let this thread die. Those who want to learn know where to continue that process, and those that want to continue being misinformed are free to do so.

-Nick
 
they were developed off of GI3's diving. Well, this worked so lets ease up here... get the picture? I only WISH that I were in his shape, but alas I am not. Diving on HIS tables would get me bent at some point. I would rather put my fate in the hands of a conservative commercial algorythm than to do "trust me" dives with his.

I know for a fact that he has been asked point blank about it and feels he is justified to design his own tables based on his intuition. Voodoo decoware... nothing more.
 
much like most of his methidology..........based on his intuition.

no independent studies or research, as long as he says so then it is good enough for his followers
 

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