Why do Advanced Open Water?

[Ber Rabbit]

One big question I have though is that you must have to charge an arm and a leg for almost 24hrs. of course/dive time???

It's through the university so most people don't have to pay for the 2 credit hours since anything over 12 credit hours is basically "free". The lab fee is $75 and you pay for your own entry fees/air for each dive weekend (3 or 4 weekends depending on class ability to meet the goals.) University provides tanks/BC's/regulators and as much air as we can since we have our own compressor.

When I add extra divers to the class that aren't from the university they need to provide their own equipment and pay their entry fees/air and NAUI's card fee. I have them pay me what they thought the class was worth after the training is done.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[Thalassamania]

It is not the instructor. It is not the content of the program. It has to do with the organization.

Try as one might, you really can’t separate the three. And even if you do, what are you left with then? An instructor apologizing for the course content and agency policies?

In the words of the great Jedi Master Thalassamia and Master Walter, you are wasting big money being taught Cr** if you signed up for PADI AOW.

No, you are entering into a class that is doing little but trying to teach you things that you should have been taught in an entry-level course. Most divers who complete (and I hate to use the word “complete” in this context) an entry-level course today must take additional training to achieve even a modest level of competence, we agree on that. Well … we agree … but PADI does like to call it “mastery.” I’m doing nothing but suggesting that the changes that occurred in diver education were not driven by sound pedagogy but by a desire to squeeze every last dime out of the student, even at the cost of offering programs of ever decreasing content and quality.

To chalk up Walter and my very real and well document disagreements with PADI’s training scheme to the overly simplistic idea that we, “just don’t like PADI” is arrogant, ignorant and frankly undeservedly disrespectful. I submit that the arrogance is yours. It is arrogance born of ignorance. This aspect of the personality of many physicians (especially surgeons) is well documented, as a group the tend to think that either they know all that there is to know about everything, or that they are so damned bright that they can figure it all out on the fly (Lynne is an obvious exception). To come to grips effectively with these issues, you will need to put that overweening pride aside and start to understand what the history of diving teaches us. You need to learn just what can actually be accomplished within a class. Just because you have not done it, or seen it done, does not mean that there are not others who do it as a matter of course.

 

[drew52]

And is this the same reason you recommend the Silver Advanced ahead of the Advanced Class in the YMCA program?

Don't get me wrong I think the YMCA has great training programs. But I am trying to see why you dislike PADI so much when it seems that the YMCA programs are fairly similar. Pool, Classroom and Open Water. Then offering further courses for further training and experience. If the YMCA Open Water course was so good we could all just move straight to the instructor program once we got the relevant experience.

And yes you have mentioned a few extra skills required by YMCA and NAUI but are these skills really the difference? Some of which PADI actually do and some which are done with a minor difference.

 

[RTW]

Is an AOW cert necessary for every diver?
No.

Did I find the Padi AOW course to be a waste of time & money?
Not at all.

My wife and I had 20, 50’ max. quarry dives when we did the Padi AOW course.
We experienced several firsts on our AOW dives: ocean, boat, deep, night, and wreck.

Should every OW certified diver experience some or all of those dives without some level of supervision?
No.

 

[Thalassamania]

And is this the same reason you recommend the Silver Advanced ahead of the Advanced Class in the YMCA program?

Don't get me wrong I think the YMCA has great training programs. But I trying to see why you dislike PADI so much when it seems that the YMCA programs are fairly similar. Pool, Classroom and Open Water. Then offering further courses for further training and experience. If the YMCA Open Water course was so good we could all just move straight to the instructor program once we got the relevant experience.

And yes you have mentioned a few extra skills required by YMCA and NAUI but are these 11 skills really the difference? I think not but that's me.

That's Walter's discussion, not mine.

YMCA is but a pale shadow of it's former self and is not influential enough in the diving world to really warrant singling out. YMCA is similar enough to PADI (as for that matter is NAUI at this stage, with the possible exception of the Master Diver program) that it really does not require separate handling and critique. I use PADI as the point of discussion because it, in large part, created the current situation and is the dominant factor in it today. I, for one, am not advocating any other agency over PADI at the moment.

 

[drew52]

oops seem to be getting the 2 of you confused. Apologies to you then.

 

[Thalassamania]

oops seem to be getting the 2 of you confused. Apologies to you then.

We're easy to confuse, similar in appearance, but Walter is slimmer and handsomer and I have the better whiskers.

 

[SharkDiver36]

I've read about 3 pages of replies most of which bash the AOW course so let me say this...

Fact: OW is good to 130ft

Now let me say this....

AOW is not designed for a person with 100 dives. AOW is designed around a diver with less than 30 dives to give them a couple of things (at least with NAUI).

SAC
Navigation
Night Dive
Better Bouancy
Intro to Wreck (geographic need-Northeast diving)
Hunting/Collecting
Search Patterns
Liftbags
Reels


AOW is different, or it should be, depending on where you dive. I dive in the Northeast and I can tell you that most of the AOW courses in my area, including PADI courses, have a lot to offer for a diver who wants more than simple warm water diving with 100' vis and perhaps only wearing a lightwieght wetsuit.

Now the fact that a basic OW cert is good to 130ft according to standards doesn't conflict with this standard either: You should never dive beyond your training.

Diving in the US is a lot different than diving out of the country. There are countless expamples of lawsuits LOST by dive shops and dive boats because they allowed someone to dive beyond their training...not their certification...their training. OW is trained to 60'.

I did read one post that hit the mark that talked about air consupmtion and getting narced which are all real concerns the deeper you go and for a newer diver it could be deadly if they don't take these things into consideration. Has it happened? Maybe 1 out of 10,000 get narced at 100' but it will happen and has; that's why dive boat operators do a CYA and require you, me and everyone else to show proof of training to a certain depth, which AOW and Deep diver gives you.

I personally believe the AOW course that our students go thru is worht it and provides them with valuable skills early in their diviing that can and does prevent future problems, especially where we dive...the Northeast.

Now if you've dove a couple hundred times with only a Basic OW cert and you've got some good dive buddies/dive mentors you look up to, given you good free advice, you learned by watching the DM/Instrutors on all the boats and asked lot's of questions then that just means you're a good diver and that's the way it should be.

It's also true that if you want to continue you're advancement into leadership roles you need it, regardless of how many dives you have, so bite the bullet and go do it. It will just be easy for you that's all.

 

[cfelliot]

It's through the university so most people don't have to pay for the 2 credit hours since anything over 12 credit hours is basically "free". The lab fee is $75 and you pay for your own entry fees/air for each dive weekend (3 or 4 weekends depending on class ability to meet the goals.) University provides tanks/BC's/regulators and as much air as we can since we have our own compressor.

When I add extra divers to the class that aren't from the university they need to provide their own equipment and pay their entry fees/air and NAUI's card fee. I have them pay me what they thought the class was worth after the training is done.
Ber :lilbunny:

It sounds like you have a great course and a very good deal either way!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And is this the same reason you recommend the Silver Advanced ahead of the Advanced Class in the YMCA program?

Don't get me wrong I think the YMCA has great training programs. But I am trying to see why you dislike PADI so much when it seems that the YMCA programs are fairly similar. Pool, Classroom and Open Water. Then offering further courses for further training and experience. If the YMCA Open Water course was so good we could all just move straight to the instructor program once we got the relevant experience.

And yes you have mentioned a few extra skills required by YMCA and NAUI but are these skills really the difference? Some of which PADI actually do and some which are done with a minor difference.

It's a question of time and economics. YMCA OW classes generally offer more pool time and class time than a shop course (from any agency) can afford to offer ... as do university courses (from any agency). It stands to reason that the more time you spend in the classroom, the more in-depth you can cover the material. And the more time you spend in the pool, the better prepared you will be do do skills in the OW.

PADI gets blamed mostly because they're the "big" agency ... and the one that popularized quickie classes that require the elimination of much that was previously taught at a given level in the interest of attracting a larger pool of students.

As with all stereotypes, there are lots of exceptions. I've worked with several great PADI instructors ... and dived with many PADI trained divers who had excellent skills. On the other hand, almost without exception those were people who recognized that the agency "standards" had deficiencies and taught (or learned) things that were not in those standards ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)