Why Are Wing Comfort Harnesses Frowned Upon?

[Colliam7]

At the risk of committing heresy, I will offer a comment on the original topic of the thread, 'Why are wing comfort harnesses frowned upon?'

I interpreted the original question as one relating to comfort harnesses IN GENERAL, and NOT why they may be frowned upon for specific classes. If that is an incorrect interpretation, feel free to disregard the comments below.

I own and use an older OMS Comfort Harness, on a steel back plate. I like it for 3 reasons: 1) I bought the rig 'new' an eBay many years ago, and it was very inexpensive- I wanted the plate, and the harness came with it, and I decided to go ahead and use it; 2) it has a left-side quick release buckle in the harness strap, which I find very useful after a long, drysuit, deco dive (it also has a right side buckle which I never touch); 3) after a considerable amount of tweaking, I manged to get the D-rings positioned where I wanted them (and the unnecessary padding removed).

I also own and use an original DR Nomad rig, which is essentially a Transpac Harness with a Nomad wing. After I purchased it, I spent time to remove one of the 2 D-rings on each shoulder strap, and all of the padding.

Having said that, I also will say that I generally DO NOT recommend a 'comfort harness' for divers moving to a back plate and trying to decide on a harness, or divers looking at soft rigs with a 'comfort harness', for several reasons: 1) the extra padding that usually comes with the harness merely adds to the cost of the harness, and is unnecessary for the majority (but not all) of divers I work with; 2) the placement of the D-rings.may be fixed (or limited in regard to adjustability), and therefore limits the individual diver's ability to position them optimally for that individual - in particular, the positioning of the swivel ring in relation to the quick release buckle is a problem for me (too close together), and 3) the attachment of the chest strap to the swivel ring may place the chest strap in an awkward position (e.g. too close to the drysuit inflator), as several have mentioned.

I don't think comfort harnesses are bad / evil / demon seed, I just don't think they offer anything which justifies the extra expense. That is why I don't recommend them. They may be great for some. I find that a simple one-piece harness on a back plate - hard (e.g. metal) or soft (e.g. soft material travel plate) - with 3-4 D-rings works well for me. But, I will also confess, I have set up an AL plate for wetsuit doubles diving, and I purposefully had a quick release buckle sewn into the left shoulder strap, to aid me in getting out of the rig easily.

I apologize that I have nothing to contribute to the discussion of steel vs AL cylinders, or whether or not you are a 'DIR Practitioner', or what would be found in a fundies class. .

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

At the risk of committing heresy, I will offer a comment on the original topic of the thread, 'Why are wing comfort harnesses frowned upon?'

I interpreted the original question as one relating to comfort harnesses IN GENERAL, and NOT why they may be frowned upon for specific classes.

Well, yes and no ... the OP did ask the question in a general sense, but put it in the context of wanting to know why GUE classes didn't allow their use ... see the emphasized text below.

A recent post from someone with a Dive Rite Transpac wanting to know if it was suitable for a Fundies class (the answer was no) got me to thinking. Why not, indeed why are comfort harnesses on wings frowned upon by some / most?

As it happens I have one. I do have a conventional Harness and BP gathering dust in my garage but prefer my comfort harness for a couple of reasons

The primary one, it that in the summer diving a neutrally buoyant suit and a steel tank, I’m carrying zero weight and still slightly over weighted. So don’t want the additional weight of a plate

I prefer the fact that it places the weight of the tank on my hips on a boat having previously had a back injury

But those are my preferences. Now I’m not trying to say GUE are wrong, their course their rules after all. But I want to know why. Why are comfort harnesses frowned upon, what reasons and what’s the data to back up those reasons?

And indeed the benefits-drawbacks of a comfort harness and the requirements of a GUE Fundies class are two separate issues.

The issue of why GUE precludes its use has been hashed to death on ScubaBoard over the years. Usually it begins with a post from someone who's already made up their mind that it's the kind of kit they want to use, and post with a "talk me out of it" mentality. So far no one's ever succeeded at doing that ... nor is it likely they ever will. Ultimately it boils down to choice ... and if it's the kit you really want to use, then that's an indication that the GUE approach probably isn't right for you.

I question the premise that "comfort harnesses" on wings are frowned upon by some/most. It's just another style of kit that's available to those who choose to use it, unless you're choosing a specific training path that precludes its use. And like all other kit it comes with benefits and drawbacks. It's useful to understand what those are, but not in the context of a specific agency's mandates for their classes ... in this case equipment choices are only one aspect of a system that only makes sense if you consider it as a whole, rather than looking at just one piece of it. In that respect, questioning the choice of gear they require is really a waste of time unless you look at it from the bigger picture. We see demonstrations of that not only in this thread, but in the many others that have been posted on the same topic over the years. Might as well be asking why PADI requires their students to carry a snorkel, since most of their classes do not teach snorkeling skills.

FWIW - I was in a similar situation when I signed up for my first Fundies class (I took it twice, having not passed it the first time). At the time I had gone through a succession of BCDs and had settled on my first backplate/wing ... a Dive Rite TransPlate. I loved that rig ... it was so much better than anything I'd used before it. I was disappointed when I signed up for Fundies and was told I couldn't use it for that class. Why not? Too many D-rings? Well, I have uses for all of them. I liked having a separate D-ring for each of the items I had to clip off ... it made sense to me to have them all on dedicated D-rings, where I could easily identify what I wanted to unclip by feel. I liked having a wing with 53-bs capacity ... it made sense to me to have that much lift, considering all the surface swimming we do here in the PNW. I liked the padding and quick-release clips ... they were familiar to me, being similar as they were to the BCD I'd been using before I got this particular rig. I couldn't understand how or why it wasn't suitable for the class. But rather than post the question on an internet forum, I questioned the instructor ... and he told me it'd all become clear once we got into the class. So I arranged to borrow a standard hog rig from a friend for the class ... and while it took some getting used to, I found that the instructor was correct that it would become clear once I started diving the rig. I discovered that I didn't need all those D-rings to properly identify what I had clipped off ... all it took was a bit of technique to learn how and where to clip things. I discovered I didn't need the padding ... a standard hog rig isn't any less comfortable on the shoulders than my DR harness was, and it was a helluva lot less expensive. I discovered that the rig "disappeared" underwater in a way that my DR harness never did. I didn't need the sternum strap anymore ... which I'd always had to be careful to place in such a way that it didn't interfere with my drysuit inflator valve. Backup lights stowed easier and less intrusively. Yes, getting into and out of the rig was a bit more difficult ... but once in the water, I decided the trade-off was worth the effort.

Same went for some other pieces of kit I'd fgrown fond of ... my Apollo Biofins, for example. I'd put several hundred dives on those fins and gotten pretty good with them. I laughed at people who told me I couldn't do various kicks in them, and proceeded to show them that yes ... I could. And putting blade fins on my feet (I used Turtles at the time) felt like somebody'd tied logs to my boots and expected me to somehow use them for propulsion. It was ridiculous. But after a few dives, I started to discover that the blades gave me a better sense of "feel" for what I was trying to do. My helicopter kicks got tighter. My frog kicks got more glide. My flutter kicks left less "evidence" in their wake ... and after putting some effort into it I discovered that I could, after all, do a reverse kick. Sure these stupid fins required more muscle power than my beloved splits ... but with some practice and technique they gave me abilities I never had before. So the trade-off was worth it.

Bottom line ... every piece of kit you can buy comes with trade-offs. It's up to you to weigh the benefits vs the drawbacks and decide which matters more to you. That's going to be an individual choice, based on a lot of factors ... performance, price and preference being the big three. We shouldn't choose our equipment based on the mandates of some class ... we should choose our classes based on what we've decided makes us happy as divers, and the equipment mandates of the class should factor into that choice. If the equipment you're using makes you happy, then don't choose a class that's going to preclude the use of that gear. There are always other choices out there. I've got c-cards from a half-dozen different agencies ... including GUE. Many ... most ... will be just fine with you using that comfort harness, if you've decided that it fits well with your performance goals. Go down to the Florida caves and look around. You'll see plenty of "comfort harnesses" in evidence ... both on backmount and sidemount rigs being used by some incredibly skilled cave divers. Where you won't find them is in a GUE class. So, if you've decided that this rig works for you and you don't want to replace it with something else, why sign up for that class? There isn't anything being taught there that you can't learn elsewhere. It's more a matter of packaging ... how does the whole system fit together. Look at the system, not the individual pieces, and decide if that's what you really want. Then make your choice. If the equipment matters more to you than the approach, then go seek your training elsewhere. There are plenty of talented NAUI, TDI, NSS-CDS, NACD, and IANTD instructors out there who will be happy to train you with the gear you prefer to use ... as long as that gear is appropriate to the dives you're planning to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diving Dubai]

@NWGratefulDiver

That was an excellent Post (as was the one from @Colliam7 ) and exactly the info I was originally looking for. My thanks

 

[eelnoraa]

If OP's question is about fundie, or his first GUE class, I think most important to have an open mind going into the class. Their standard and requirement can be quite different and stricter compared other more commercialized agencies. Since you are "in" already, you should just give the "full experience" a try, ie, the gear requirement, the balance rig concept, gas management concept, team concept ... See if their way works for you. If so, great. If not, you don't have to keep diving their way after the course. But one thing I can assure you, as long as you have the willing to learn mindset, either way, you will get a lot out of the class, you will feel satisfied with the money you spend. After all, you are in the class for learning, there is no reason to fight the fundamental concept of the class.

 

[geoff w]

Interestingly enough, the DIR guys have been doing specimen and sample collection for years with their configuration, so to say it doesn't work is a little disingenuous. And unless your IDC friend is a member of the WKPP, I'd be hard pressed to believe that his specimen collection has been done under quite the same rigorous conditions.

He's only doing specimen collection based on AAUS guidelines. Typically 45-90 minute dives at night, up to about a dozen or so game bags of differing sizes, nothing bigger than a 3 ft shark or bass.

I didn't realize the WKPP guys were collecting that many live specimens. I always thought it was mostly cave exploration

 

[PfcAJ]

He's only doing specimen collection based on AAUS guidelines. Typically 45-90 minute dives at night, up to about a dozen or so game bags of differing sizes, nothing bigger than a 3 ft shark or bass.

I didn't realize the WKPP guys were collecting that many live specimens. I always thought it was mostly cave exploration

We're full of tricks. To be fair, we're not using a dozen or so game bags though. However, It would have to be something real unique to require extra d-rings. We manage flow meters, cave radio locators, extra tanks and scooters, video and lighting stuff, etc without adding to the normal harness.

 

[Reku]

I was going to add to the conversation but I see that everyone else has beaten this to death. Therefore - I suggest you dive whatever you want - forget the haters.