Info Why are tables not taught in OW classes anymore?

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As it turns out, I know quite a bit about this. When I was trying to write my article on different NDL ascents, I contacted GUE and asked for an explanation. I was given a very detailed description of why they do what they do. This was after a thread on ScubaBoard in which different GUE divers gave their own explanations. None of them were right.

I wrote earlier that there is no indication of an ascent rate that is too slow, as long as it does not put the diver into deco. The GUE MDL ascent will not put the diver into deco, so it is most likely safe. What most people don't know about it is that the primary reason for the stops at the end is the belief that the shallowest part of the ascent should be done slower than the deepest part. Doing a series of stops accomplishes that and mirrors the process of ascending from a decompression dive.

This is not remotely close to what most people consider a multilevel dive. As I wrote several times in another thread, I did a maximum depth 126 foot dive on EAN 32 with a total dive time of 88 minutes. That is a multi-level dive.

There is, however, no research supporting the GUE MDL table. It is all based on their belief.
I think you misunderstood. I was not referring to the GUE mindeco ascent profile. I was referring to what GUE teaches about using depth averaging while diving tables, which you and @tursiops and others have claimed is not possible/not safe/a shot in the dark.

Your example shows a dive that wouldn't make much sense to use a table, I agree, and it shows what computers are better at, but it is still quite irrelevant in terms of figuring out if depth averaging tables is safe or not.

Regardless of the origin of this practice, if depth averaging in the way I've described consistently gives safe dive profiles that are within the limits of a Buhlman computer, it works. This is why I'm asking for the opposite of your example - an example of a dive planned using tables and depth averaging that shows this practice is dangerous/outside the limits of what a computer would give.
 
I think you misunderstood. I was not referring to the GUE mindeco ascent profile. I was referring to what GUE teaches about using depth averaging while diving tables, which you and @tursiops and others have claimed is not possible/not safe/a shot in the dark.

Your example shows a dive that wouldn't make much sense to use a table, I agree, and it shows what computers are better at, but it is still quite irrelevant in terms of figuring out if depth averaging tables is safe or not.

Regardless of the origin of this practice, if depth averaging in the way I've described consistently gives safe dive profiles that are within the limits of a Buhlman computer, it works. This is why I'm asking for the opposite of your example - an example of a dive planned using tables and depth averaging that shows this practice is dangerous/outside the limits of what a computer would give.
Can you point to the research that validates the process?
 
Hi
Of course nobody says tables are better than computers but it would be good to stop saying that tables can only be used for square profiles and not for multi-level diving.
Maybe your US Navy, PADI or NAUI tables cannot be used for multi-level but the world is wide and as I have said before in other threads, there are some official tables for this purpose.
The tables done by COMEX are an example.
Here is a extract from the Wikipedia page (History of decompression research and development - Wikipedia) about history of deco tables mentioning this "split level diving". Sorry but that the only thing I found in English :)

"In 1982, the French government funded a research project for the evaluation of the MT74 tables using computer analysis of the dive report database, which indicated that the MT74 tables had limitations for severe exposures.[75] The government then supported a second project to develop and validate new tables.[76] A complete set of air tables, with options of pure oxygen breathing at 6 m (surface supplied), at 12 m (wet bell), surface decompression, split level diving, repetitive diving, etc. was developed in 1983. This early model already implemented the concept of continuous compartment half-times. For the safe ascent criteria, the Arterial Bubble model was not derived mathematically, but an approximation was defined empirically by fitting mathematical expressions to selected exposures from the Comex database. At the time, the best fit was obtained by the expression now called AB Model-1, which was used to compute a set of decompression tables that was evaluated offshore on selected Comex worksites. In 1986, after some minor adjustments, the tables were included in the Comex diving manuals and used as standard procedures. In 1992, the tables were included in the new French diving regulations under the name of Tables du Ministère du Travail 1992 or MT92 tables[44] "
 
Can you point to the research that validates the process?
No, but if using the tables in a given way reliably mimics the Buhlmann algorithm (and errs on the conservative side), then it won't be less safe than following a computer with a Buhlmann algorithm.
 
Hi
Of course nobody says tables are better than computers but it would be good to stop saying that tables can only be used for square profiles and not for multi-level diving.
Maybe your US Navy, PADI or NAUI tables cannot be used for multi-level but the world is wide and as I have said before in other threads, there are some official tables for this purpose.
The tables done by COMEX are an example.
Here is a extract from the Wikipedia page (History of decompression research and development - Wikipedia) about history of deco tables mentioning this "split level diving". Sorry but that the only thing I found in English :)

"In 1982, the French government funded a research project for the evaluation of the MT74 tables using computer analysis of the dive report database, which indicated that the MT74 tables had limitations for severe exposures.[75] The government then supported a second project to develop and validate new tables.[76] A complete set of air tables, with options of pure oxygen breathing at 6 m (surface supplied), at 12 m (wet bell), surface decompression, split level diving, repetitive diving, etc. was developed in 1983. This early model already implemented the concept of continuous compartment half-times. For the safe ascent criteria, the Arterial Bubble model was not derived mathematically, but an approximation was defined empirically by fitting mathematical expressions to selected exposures from the Comex database. At the time, the best fit was obtained by the expression now called AB Model-1, which was used to compute a set of decompression tables that was evaluated offshore on selected Comex worksites. In 1986, after some minor adjustments, the tables were included in the Comex diving manuals and used as standard procedures. In 1992, the tables were included in the new French diving regulations under the name of Tables du Ministère du Travail 1992 or MT92 tables[44] "
I've attached the MT92 tables, from DiveTables.eu.
Here is a comparison (for air) of the NDLs for those tables, and for several others.
Depth (ft/m)MT92- Table 3US Navy
(old)
US Navy
(new)
PADI RDP
(DSAT)
DCIEM
(1997)
IANTD
(2004)
TDI/Buhlm
(2005)
40/12165 mins200 mins163 mins140 mins90 mins125 mins
50/158010092807075
60/1850606355505144
70/2135504840353528
80/2425403930252520
90/2720303325202018
100/3015252520151716
110/3312202016121414
120/3610151513101212
130/39810121081010
140/4271010897

The USN tables have the longest NDLs (i.e., most aggressive) of any of the tables, while MT92, DCIEM, and the old TDI/Buhlmann tables vie for the shortest NDLs (i.e., most conservative).The RDP and the old IANTD are middle-of-the-road.
MY92 has a Table 7 used for an equivalent air depth, so that Nitrox of various mixtures can be used with the air deco tables.
MT92 also has a Table 8, used for calculating an equivalent depth for a multi-level dive. It is, in fact, simply a table way of calculating a linear average depth. In general, this is an incorrect procedures, as can be shown theoretically and also by comparing results using it to results using correct procedures. It is possible that the differences in the two procedures (correct and incorrect) will be small, but that is not guaranteed and it is not clear how to determine when you will get a "good" answer and when you will get a faulty answer.
  • The theoretical argument against using this average depth to determine decompression needs is that it ignores the decompression that takes place on a single level dive when one ascends to the surface. That is, if the dive level is (say) 30m, and you ascend at 10m/min, then you have 3 minutes of ascent time during which you are off-gassing; that off-gassing is included in the table calculation. By ignoring that ascent off-gassing -- which you do by using the average depth procedure -- you think you are in a certain nitrogen status but in fact you are not: you have more nitrogen than you think because you have not done the off-gassing.
  • The practical example of the error in the average depth procedure can be illustrated by using the table RDP compared to the eRDPml, which is designed to allow multi-level diving based on the same decompression model as the RDP; they are the same model, just with results presented in different forms. Assume your dive is to 30m/100 ft for 18 minutes (NDL is 20 mins). Your Pressure Group is then P. In that Pressure Group, a second level at 60 ft/18m has residual nitrogen of 39 minutes and NDL of 55 mins, so you think you might have 55-39=16 more minutes you can spend at your new depth. But a multi-level calculation with the eRDPml says you only are allowed 13 mins at that second depth. (This is because you actually have more nitrogen in you than the square-table allows for, since you did not ascend to the surface.) Using the average depth procedure suggested by MT92, your "equivalent depth" is 25m/80 ft. At that depth, your NDL is 30 mins, but you will have spent more than that (either 31 or 34 minutes) by using the average depth procedure of MT92.
Calculating safe profiles for multilevel dives using depth average is not a good practice. You can easly go into deco (violate your NDLs) and not know it.

The only saving grace on using MT92 procedures is that the NDLs of the tables are quite conservative, so violating those NDLs by just a few minutes may not actually put you into deco status if you were using a more aggressive dive model. So, you might be lucky. Luck is no way to plan a dive.
 

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Many new divers have been trained only to use dive computers; they have had no introduction to or any familiarity with dive tables.

Many posts on ScubaBoard respond to posts about “what do I do if my computer fails” with the statement, “just use tables.”

This is a disconnect….

Here is the deal on tables, why they have pretty much disappeared from recreational diving, and why the idea of tables (and sometimes their use) is still valid.

Both dive tables and dive computers try and estimate the amount of nitrogen you have absorbed into your body as a result of the amount of time you have spent at depth (i.e., under pressure). It is the (greater than atmospheric) ambient pressure at depth that pushes the nitrogen into your tissues and blood, and with more time spent at that depth, more nitrogen gets pushed in.

The models that try and track this “on-gassed’ nitrogen are mathematically messy. Most of them assume that your body is composed of a number of different tissue types, co-called “compartments,” some of which absorb the nitrogen more quickly, others more slowly; and, each of these compartments has a maximum amount of nitrogen it can absorb. There is a lot to keep track of. While you are underwater at some depth breathing compressed gas, your body is absorbing all this nitrogen, and then when you ascend the nitrogen begins to “off-gas,” which it can only do at the same rate at which it on-gassed, which of course is a different rate for each of the assumed compartments!

When the dive tables were first developed, there were no electronic computers like we have today. Everything was done by hand using mechanical calculators and pencil and paper. Consequently, the table-makers wanted to keep it as simple as possible, so the tables were for “square profile” dives, meaning you descended to a depth, stayed at that depth for the duration of the dive, and ascended. That was OK at the time, because there were no real recreational divers swimming up and down and around coral heads looking at pretty fish and investigating wrecks, and working dives (Navy and commercial) tended to actually be square profiles; everything was fine with tables.

The down-side for square profiles was that the amount of gas used was based on being at the maximum depth for the entire dive, until you ascended, so it was common to run out of gas before hitting your No Decompression Limits. This was also fine, because there was less worry about the “accuracy” of the NDL calculations.

Those early dive tables (for example, the US Navy dive tables) had another assumption built-in that was rather restrictive for recreational divers; the slowest compartment (the one that “controlled” your on-gassing buildup of nitrogen, and your off-gassing rate) was deemed to have a time-constant of 120 minutes. This meant that the surface interval between dives when you were doing a multi-dive day had to be rather long….or you were not doing much off-gassing.

Diving Science And Technology (DSAT), a corporate affiliate of PADI -- starting in the mid-1980s -- rethought recreational dive tables based on using a 60-minute compartment (instead of 120 minutes) as the controlling compartment; using other modern technologies (like Doppler bubble sensing and electronic computers) they developed the Recreational Dive Planner (RDP), which allowed for shorter surface intervals and more granularity in the on- and off-gassing calculations. That model – originally available only in standard dive tables – also became embedded in an electronic hand-calculator version of the table, in an analog circular slide-rule version (The Wheel), and finally in several dive computers, where it is known as the DSAT algorithm.

The big advantages of DSAT and the RDP model over previous models were that (1) it was specifically for non-deco diving, so did not need to have embedded in it any additional conservatism for decompression diving, and (2) since the controlling compartment was only 60 mins, surface intervals could be shorter and thus single-day repetitive diving was made more realistic and easier.

The huge advantage of having the gas on-gassing and off-gassing tracked by a computer that you work on your wrist (or had in a console) was that you could track your actual dive, with its ups and downs, and not be forced into a square-profile assumption. As a consequence, instead of going to (say) 80 feet and spending your entire dive there, you could stay a few minutes at 80, come up to 60 for a while, then 40 for a while, back down to 60, then up to 20 for a while….and your dive computer was with you and tracking (with its model) your on-gassing and off-gassing. Nice.

There are many dive computers using a number of different models, but they all work roughly the same and all track your movements up and down in the water. Consequently, with a dive computer you get longer dives than you can by assuming a square profile on a table, and you get shorter surface intervals before the next dive. Win-Win.

Today, dive tables are rarely taught in OW classes because they are tedious to use, and give considerably less information than your dive computer. However, many argue that dive tables help you to understand the on-gassing/off-gassing better, because they don’t bury everything into a small electronic device with just a (sometimes) complicated display on the front. True or not, they have pretty much gone away for recreational diving. Few know how to use dive tables, and they can easily be used incorrectly.

BUT, what happens if you are on a dive trip and your nice dive computer fails, perhaps during a dive? Best Practice, you immediately end the dive and surface, because you now do not know your depth nor how long you’ve been there, so you ascend and end the dive. Worse, you now do not know your nitrogen status…so if you want to do another dive you need to account for that residual nitrogen….and if you can’t do that, then you should stay out of the water for 24h to let your body “reset” to having completely off-gassed.

Is there anyway around being in the “penalty box” for a day? Yes, there are two ways, one is certain, one is problematic. Certain: carry a second dive computer with you on all dives, so it is a backup that knows your nitrogen status and can be used if your primary fails. Problematic: revert to dive tables. Attempt to work out a version of the dives so far today before your computer failed, and use the table to estimate your nitrogen status. Here is the problem with reverting to dive tables: suppose your computer failed on dive one of the day, and you had gone down to 80 ft for a while, then up to 60 to see the super-structure of a wreck, then up to 40 to spend some time on the reef, and were just getting ready to go to your safety stop about 50 minutes into the dive….and your computer failed. You can surface and end the dive (just don’t go up too quickly), but your square-profile equivalent dive for using tables is 80 ft for 50 minutes. But, the RDP table maxes out at 30 minutes at 80 ft. The dive you just did cannot be done on tables….the tables say you are in decompression status! THAT is the problem with trying to revert to tables,; maybe you can, but often you cannot.

And this is why tables are not taught any more in most OW classes. They do not suit the kind of diving that recreational divers do.
Most of the agencies still have tables in their knowledge development programs. Most require a computer or at least a timing device as basic dive gear. Lots of great responses in this thread. Having a plastic table handy in planning your dive is very useful. Personally there are great dive planning apps for your phone and that is what I will use. Making a week of diving at Truk Lagoon we dived on EAN28. For the San Francisco Maru we needed EAN26 with 1.4 which got us to the tanks on the deck for quick photos. I planned on exploring a bit more so my dive was a decompression dive and I used the app MultiDeco to plan it. My backup plan was 1.6. Plastic tables were useless for this type of dive. That being said, teaching tables is still important for new divers to learn the concepts of pressure and depth. But also teach them to use the new apps and their dive computers. Encoureage them to take Science of Diving or similar agency courses. At times I dive with two computers and a SPG for reduntancy. PGauge on the 4L stage bottle.
 
The practical example of the error in the average depth procedure can be illustrated by using the table RDP compared to the eRDPml, which is designed to allow multi-level diving based on the same decompression model as the RDP; they are the same model, just with results presented in different forms. Assume your dive is to 30m/100 ft for 18 minutes (NDL is 20 mins). Your Pressure Group is then P. In that Pressure Group, a second level at 60 ft/18m has residual nitrogen of 39 minutes and NDL of 55 mins, so you think you might have 55-39=16 more minutes you can spend at your new depth. But a multi-level calculation with the eRDPml says you only are allowed 13 mins at that second depth. (This is because you actually have more nitrogen in you than the square-table allows for, since you did not ascend to the surface.) Using the average depth procedure suggested by MT92, your "equivalent depth" is 25m/80 ft. At that depth, your NDL is 30 mins, but you will have spent more than that (either 31 or 34 minutes) by using the average depth procedure of MT92.
Using the "GUE method" of calculating depth averages for tables for this dive profile would give you a total of 30 minutes allowed, so it agrees with the eRDPml (which gives a total of 31 minutes). How? Avg depth 25m, so 27m table, but since you're diving air and not nitrox, 30m table for a total of 30 minutes. As far as I can see, this is an example of the GUE depth averaging using tables works and is safe.
 
Using the "GUE method" of calculating depth averages for tables for this dive profile would give you a total of 30 minutes allowed, so it agrees with the eRDPml (which gives a total of 31 minutes). How? Avg depth 25m, so 27m table, but since you're diving air and not nitrox, 30m table for a total of 30 minutes. As far as I can see, this is an example of the GUE depth averaging using tables works and is safe.
I cannot comment on the GUE tables, since they (and their use procedures) do not seem to be public information. However, you state a 30m table for 30 minutes. that doesn't seem possible. Did you mean to go shallower from 27, for air vs Nitrox, as with Equivalent Air Depth?
 
That being said, teaching tables is still important for new divers to learn the concepts of pressure and depth.
Why do you need tables to teach the concepts of pressure and depth?
 
I cannot comment on the GUE tables, since they (and their use procedures) do not seem to be public information. However, you state a 30m table for 30 minutes. that doesn't seem possible. Did you mean to go shallower from 27, for air vs Nitrox, as with Equivalent Air Depth?
GUE minimum deco table (for EAN32)

Most GUE divers would do the example dive on EAN32, but if Air was the only option, one shortcut for diving air on the nitrox table is to "use a deeper table" giving you a shorter bottom time. So instead of 40 minutes at 27m, you would have 30 minutes (equivalent to 30m on EAN32).
 

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