Why are primary lights so expensive?

[tbone1004]

perfect point of that is when HOG and now Deep 6 are marketing the same regulators as companies like Hollis and Dive Rite for significantly less amounts of money.
They are from the same OEM, similar features, and the 200lx DCS is $624 online, vs $375 for Deep6, or $460 for HOG D3/Zenith. The difference in price is literally straight up margin to the respective companies and is the price you pay for the brands, their respective overhead requirements etc etc.

Primary lights at least those from Dive Rite, Light Monkey, and UWLD who are the bigger names here are all produced either by, or exclusively for the respective companies from the machinists. Hollis sold a light rebadged from Light Monkey, then knocked it off in the China by another division of AUP that makes lights. Quality sucked and you can read a whole lot about the 25w LED from Hollis and how much of a POS it was. Deep6 has their light coming from Asia as well and as you can see, being able to mark it down from $1200 to $750 is the margin that they are able to sacrifice to generate new revenue as well as packaging their backup lights at 25% off their retail price when you buy the canister, however I'm willing to bet they are selling those at cost to generate interest etc etc. They can only do that because they are buying these things cheap from someone who is able to take the overhead and design burden and spread it out. As such it suffers when compared to say UWLD in terms of overall features etc which is part of why a UWLD35 with the big canister is almost twice the price. It's justified in that price, because you gain features like the charging dock, latchless design, piezo button on the head instead of a boot switch, braided cord cover, smaller light head, innovative goodman etc. You pay for all of those features to step up from something like the D6 to a UWLD, but neither are making huge margins.

 

[tbone1004]

none of them post regularly on here and if they do it is typically in their own subforum. They don't usually have time to participate, but I'll see if I can get Bobby to pitch in

 

[Bobby]

Thanks to, tbone, for letting me know about this thread. I do try and check the boards regularly however I tend to be kept rather busy making canister dive lights. Regardless of how it has been asked there are some good questions which I will answer from my own experience and perspective. Not all manufacturers are equal the same as a Toyota and a Ferrari are not equal. If looking for basic transportation then a high end canister light doesn't fit the bill.

For us there are a number of things that add to the cost of producing our lights. I can say for sure a high salary (profit margin) is not one of them. $15.00 per hour was mentioned and I don't average $15.00 per hour. As owner of the company I do have perks such as the company pays for my expenses to go to shows & events. The reality, at least for me, is that I'm getting by while doing something that I'm passionate about. I left the corporate world to pursue this business and truly enjoy what I do and what I manufacture. If I were in it for the money I would go back to consulting.

• We do all of our own design from the ground up. Latest CAD (computer aided design) software upgrade was over $5,000 USD
• Lithium packs now are required to be certified regardless of volume. Cost is $5,000 per type of pack.
• We use our own custom firmware for the LED drivers. A lot of time has been invested in a robust & reliable system.
• We do a lot of testing to ensure our products perform in the most remote and difficult technical diving conditions. From that we add components to improve reliability and function.
• We purchase low volume to have the most current LED's and other components available.
• Every PCB we use is designed by us to include the LED's, battery packs, etc.. They are designed for technical diving, they are not off the shelf meant for some other industry.
• We have redundancy built in to get you through that trip to a remote location even if something does fail. Electronics will fail from time to time even when using the highest quality parts.
• All of our machining is done here in the USA on 4 axis machines. Some of our tolerances are 0.050mm. The tighter the tolerance the slower the machine has to run which costs more money.
• We use Delrin, high grade Aluminum, & hard coat anodizing. There are cheaper materials however they don't perform as well or reliably.
• We use the highest quality battery cells available.
• Our Piezo switches are custom made for us to our specifications to work in technical diving applications.
• Our optics are designed specifically for use under water. I believe we have the best optics of any dive light (personal opinion & biased) this was and is expensive.
• Reliable and robust external charging in a salt water environment, without chewing up battery run time, is expensive to design & requires more components adding to cost.
• Our latchless system took a bit of prototyping before we got it just right. This also costs money besides the design.
• Warranty, we offer outstanding warranty of our products. If there is a sliver of doubt that it should be covered under warranty, and even sometimes when it shouldn't, we warranty it.
• We don't just sit back and cruise. We are constantly testing new components and hatching ideas to improve the product. We recently made a 0.020" change on a component resulting in an improvement.

Now throw in website setup design, upkeep, & maintenance. Vehicle for shows and events. Marketing to let people know about your products. Insurance, electric bills, equipment to manufacture, inventory on the shelves. The costs add up fast. Then there is the time to keep up with ever changing rules & regulations. Keeping the vendors in line so quality doesn't slip. Getting on boards to share information so folks can understand the value.

I worked corporate manufacturing all over the world for a few decades. I know I could go to Asia and produce our products for less money however they would not have the same quality. The few things we do get from Asia we struggle to ensure they follow our specifications. That is why we moved our battery PCB manufacturing here to North America. It costs more however the reliability is well worth the money. There are less expensive canister lights on the market as well. When comparing apples to apples as far as reliability, light output, run time, & warranty support I don't believe that they hold their value. Innovation, quality, & reliability cost money.

Also a Mac Book Air was mentioned as a comparison. That is a product that has been well documented to the manufacturing practices. I do care about the people that contract with us and our future employees. The Mac is a product mass produced in Asia with extreme pressure on its employees to produce. It is also not a piece of equipment that you take into a foreign environment that requires life support to live. Personally I want a product that has a bit more care and dedication in its manufacture when I'm going into a cave, penetrating a wreck, or doing a deep dive.

I hope this clears up why a high quality canister light costs what it does.

 

[geoff w]

perfect point of that is when HOG and now Deep 6 are marketing the same regulators as companies like Hollis and Dive Rite for significantly less amounts of money.
They are from the same OEM, similar features, and the 200lx DCS is $624 online, vs $375 for Deep6, or $460 for HOG D3/Zenith. The difference in price is literally straight up margin to the respective companies and is the price you pay for the brands, their respective overhead requirements etc etc.

Primary lights at least those from Dive Rite, Light Monkey, and UWLD who are the bigger names here are all produced either by, or exclusively for the respective companies from the machinists. Hollis sold a light rebadged from Light Monkey, then knocked it off in the China by another division of AUP that makes lights. Quality sucked and you can read a whole lot about the 25w LED from Hollis and how much of a POS it was. Deep6 has their light coming from Asia as well and as you can see, being able to mark it down from $1200 to $750 is the margin that they are able to sacrifice to generate new revenue as well as packaging their backup lights at 25% off their retail price when you buy the canister, however I'm willing to bet they are selling those at cost to generate interest etc etc. They can only do that because they are buying these things cheap from someone who is able to take the overhead and design burden and spread it out. As such it suffers when compared to say UWLD in terms of overall features etc which is part of why a UWLD35 with the big canister is almost twice the price. It's justified in that price, because you gain features like the charging dock, latchless design, piezo button on the head instead of a boot switch, braided cord cover, smaller light head, innovative goodman etc. You pay for all of those features to step up from something like the D6 to a UWLD, but neither are making huge margins.

I can't speak for the other manufacturers, but the other week I had the pleasure of getting a tour of the Dive Rite facility from Jared Hires before flying home from a business trip to Jacksonville. I didn't know what to expect, but was blown away (in a really good way) by the operation. As far as regulators - I saw how they are different from the generic rebranded Chinese ones - custom parts, additional machining and then quality assurance to make sure things work before going out the door. Most all of the DiveRite products are sourced in the US and assembled / integrated AND pass QA before going out the door. The LX20 light which I'm lusting after but can't justify the cost for the diving I do are individually tested to make sure they meet the output specs, plus they're engineered to specific requirements for tech divers, as I'm sure the UWLD, Light Monkey and others are. What really impressed me was every light was being tested against their specs, with the results logged and tracked. By comparison, I've got a small 1100 lumen Big Blue Light which is fine for the diving I do, but comparing the two it's clear a lot more thought, engineering and quality parts (e.g., machined delrin case vs. stamped out aluminum case in China) go into the Dive Rite. From personal experience, Dive Rite stands behind their products and have a very customer friendly attitude. By comparison, one of my UK lights crapped out and when I called their customer support, I was treated like a criminal trying to pull a fast one (which is a big change from the way it used to be)

From being at the Long Beach scuba show last weekend, it's abundantly clear the cost of the power source is a significant part of the equation for any electronic gadget, whether lights or scooters. 18650s are the predominant form factor for a lot of products, including Tesla vehicles. If cost is a big consideration, figure the batter cost should come down A LOT when Tesla gets their battery gigafactory online and at production volume in a few years

 

[tbone1004]

as an fyi the LX20 won't put out any more light than your big blue, it can't based on the single emitter. Dive Rite is a great company, but their lights are nothing when compared to some of the other manufacturers out there because they aren't light manufacturers. When you look at who does what in the industry, Dive Rite does have specific quality standards, and custom punch their own diaphragm material etc for their regs, but they aren't reg designers. They hold the guys in Taiwan to a very high standard, but still rely on them for the design. Their lights use off the shelf parts and are taken to a machinist and they figure out how to assemble them. Same at LM, it's done to a very high standard and does use quality stuff, but it's not the same as say UWLD designing a light. That is all they do, the guys doing it are degreed engineers with specific experience in lighting. No different than Deep Sea Supply on plates and wings, the guys at Atomic designing regulators, or Shearwater designing computers. They are in a completely different league when it comes to the products they put out.

 

[cool_hardware52]

18650s are the predominant form factor for a lot of products, including Tesla vehicles. If cost is a big consideration, figure the batter cost should come down A LOT when Tesla gets their battery gigafactory online and at production volume in a few years

I buy a quite a few of 18650's As chance would have it I just issued a PO for 600 pieces. I've sourced well over 2 million rechargeable cells in the last 20 years. I'm still baffled how a "gigafactory" is going to cut the costs of 18650's by any meaningful amount. Battery manufacturing currently is highly automated, and most concentrated in low wage areas. Regardless of where the assembly plant is located you still need nickle for cases, and lithium and electrolyte, sealing components, heat shrink etc. The input materials don't magically get cheaper in Reno vs Korea. Will a US based "giga factory" be able to offset higher costs of domestic wages with even greater automation? Maybe, but without game changing technology in the actual cell I just don't see Lithium Ion cells getting a great deal cheaper.

Tobin

 

[geoff w]

as an fyi the LX20 won't put out any more light than your big blue, it can't based on the single emitter. Dive Rite is a great company, but their lights are nothing when compared to some of the other manufacturers out there because they aren't light manufacturers. When you look at who does what in the industry, Dive Rite does have specific quality standards, and custom punch their own diaphragm material etc for their regs, but they aren't reg designers. They hold the guys in Taiwan to a very high standard, but still rely on them for the design. Their lights use off the shelf parts and are taken to a machinist and they figure out how to assemble them. Same at LM, it's done to a very high standard and does use quality stuff, but it's not the same as say UWLD designing a light. That is all they do, the guys doing it are degreed engineers with specific experience in lighting. No different than Deep Sea Supply on plates and wings, the guys at Atomic designing regulators, or Shearwater designing computers. They are in a completely different league when it comes to the products they put out.

I totally agree, but never said the LX20 was any brighter, just that it's higher quality, i.e., consistent between specific copies of the same product, fully tested, etc. And the DiveRite light gets props for trying to set the direction as a can-less light suitable for a lot of technical diving. It's not blazingly bright or come with insane burn time, but to me it really represents a technology leap over the past for primary lights by getting rid of the cans. I can't justify the cost of an UWLD light for my personal recreational diving requirements (I'd rather save $$ for a warm, tropical destination or a DPV), but from looking at their web site, UWLD appears to still bemarried to canisters (although I'm sure they've started thinking about can-less too). Back to the OP question, besides quality, innovation is one of the reasons primary lights are expensive, and I have yet to see any innovation coming out of Chinese lights, or regulators, or fins, or dive rigs, or dry suits, or masks, or dive computers...

FYI, the DiveRite machinist does machine work on what they get from Taiwan, not just assembly

 

[OMANDIVER]

LOL. Wasn't me that implied can light producers were worthy of ridicule and ripping people off with "huge" margins.

Both of these are attacks on the character and practices of the producers, and neither are necessary if you genuinely want to discover why top quality can lights cost what they do.

One more time.

"Why do can lights cost $XX, seems expensive to me?" is a perfectly reasonable inquiry.

"Ridiculous" and "huge margins" to describe a product and process you know nothing about are not.

Tobin

That's why I asked the question...durrrrrr

 

[tbone1004]

I totally agree, but never said the LX20 was any brighter, just that it's higher quality, i.e., consistent between specific copies of the same product, fully tested, etc. And the DiveRite light gets props for trying to set the direction as a can-less light suitable for a lot of technical diving. It's not blazingly bright or come with insane burn time, but to me it really represents a technology leap over the past for primary lights by getting rid of the cans. I can't justify the cost of an UWLD light for my personal recreational diving requirements (I'd rather save $$ for a warm, tropical destination or a DPV), but from looking at their web site, UWLD appears to still bemarried to canisters (although I'm sure they've started thinking about can-less too). Back to the OP question, besides quality, innovation is one of the reasons primary lights are expensive, and I have yet to see any innovation coming out of Chinese lights, or regulators, or fins, or dive rigs, or dry suits, or masks, or dive computers...

FYI, the DiveRite machinist does machine work on what they get from Taiwan, not just assembly

I never said they just did assembly, they do legit machining which is why they can claim made in USA.
anyway, that logic for buying one doesn't really make any sense to me. Dive Rite has had canister-less primaries out for close to a decade going all the way back to the 10w HID-hell I still have one. The LX20 just has literally nothing innovative in it to warrant paying $700 for it, especially with how big it is. It is SIGNIFICANTLY bigger than their older handhelds, but doesn't put out a lot more light, maybe 200 extra lumens over the RX1. I wouldn't call that any technology leap because it doesn't do what the cans do. IF UWLD were to release something comparable without much change right now, it would be a little large in diameter than the LX20, similar length, but would double the light output with the same burn time. That would be a technology leap, the LX20 is literally nothing more than a backup light with 4x18650's instead of 1 or 2. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Yes it is made to higher quality standards than some of the others, but it uses the EXACT same technology that is in most of the other good backup lights, same emitter, same driver, same batteries. I like and respect Dive Rite a lot, but if they are telling you anything other than that, they are lying to you either intentionally or out of ignorance. It is literally that simple

 

[cool_hardware52]

That's why I asked the question...durrrrrr

I understand your desire to pretend you never called for ridicule or made claims that light producers were ripping off there customers, but your original post is still there for all to see.

Trying to understand why lights cost what they do is perfectly legit, assigning motives where you have *zero* understanding of the realities of the industry remains wrong and uncalled for IMO.

Tobin