DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[Adobo]

Fundies dives are shallow NDL. Quite different from decompression dives which are frequently deeper..


Great example of differences.

How does that work? For instance wreck is deeper by 10m/33ft (scar, interesting stuff on bottom, poor survey, etc.), do you use the TTS to alter the bottom time (important for deeper dives)?

This reply is in the context of light technical ocean dives.

First, tables, by definition, have multiple rows. You would generate data for several likely profiles. These are examples only:

150ft:

• 20 mins bottom time, 20 mins deco
• 25 mins bottom time, 25 mins deco
• 30 mins bottom time, 30 mins deco
• 35 mins bottom time, 35 mins deco

160ft:

• 20 mins bottom time, 25 mins deco
• 25 mins bottom time, 30 mins deco
• 30 mins bottom time, 35 mins deco

170ft:

• 15 mins bottom time, 25 mins deco
• 20 mins bottom time, 30 mins deco
• etc.

The depth described is average depth. Meaning, 155ft for 10 mins + 150ft for 10 mins + 145ft for 10 mins = 150ft average depth. So if you dip down deeper than your planned average depth to have a look at something interesting, its fine. You just need to factor that in during the rest of your dive (spend appropriate time on the shallower end of the profile) so you average depth will match the deco you want to do.

If your average depth winds up deeper than you planned, you adjust your deco accordingly. Of course, there are limits to how much you can adjust. The amount of gas you have, of course, but also, the more deco obligation you accrue, presumably you are assuming more risk. Also, timing is an important component. Usually, the boat has more than one team in the water. If you are live boating, you really do not want more than a few minutes separating the teams beginning their ascent (indicated to the boat by sending up an SMB). Otherwise, there could be a huge spread between teams and it becomes difficult for the boat crew to keep track.

Your question is complex in that other factors come into play with a 10 meter/33ft deviation from your planned dive depth. Tech level 1 divers have more constraints that might make that kind of difference (planned vs. actual) difficult to accommodate. Level 2 divers will have more flexibility.

Based on the above, one can execute technical dives without a dive computer. All you need is a depth gauge and a timer. And obviously, you only need to generate this table once. If you are planning a dive profile that you do not have data for (eg. 100ft for 60 mins), you will want to generate a table for dive profiles such as 110ft, 100ft, 90ft.

 

[Adobo]

Not to be obnoxious... but is everything here GUE approve with in reason?
Here's A screenshot of a top article that I quickly cruised through....
View attachment 726856
Seems alot of this thread was sorta a fight over this very topic,,,,
This is why it can be very confusing what is what with gue.

I kinda get not jumping on a fad in diving,,,
Give it time and we'll see what happens
process...

I mean with most things I am 20 years behind in technology, as well.....

I am over 10 years removed from my last GUE class so its entirely possible that much of my opinions are not in line with current thinking.

That blurb in your screenshot - it makes presumptions that need to be challenged.

The implication is that once a diver has been given proper training, there is little, if any difference between doing a dive on open circuit vs. doing the dive in a rebreather. That simply is not true. In the case of light technical dives, the gear is brain dead simple. In my case, I went from diving doubles in recreational dives (NDL) to adding a deco bottle. That's it. The idea that a properly trained rebreather diver will face no more gear related complications than a tech 1 diver is just absurd. In fact, I would argue that a tech 2 diver can do a lifetime of dives at the 200ft range in open circuit that involve far less gear complexity than what you have with a rebreather. You are talking about bigger doubles and two deco bottles. No big deal.
Beyond that, when you are talking about multiple stage bottles along with deco bottles, the amount of gear you are bringing with you might be taking you to the inflection point where the inherent complications of a rebreather becomes about the same or even less than the complications you face with so much open circuit gear.

My personal feeling about rebreathers (JJ or RB80) and sidemount both come down to this - are they the appropriate tools the for the dive a person wants to do? Even though GUE has classes on those topics, whether or not it is DIR to use those configurations, for me, have to do with whether or not they are appropriate for the given dive. A 70ft reef dive with a rebreather in my opinion is absurd. As is sidemount in open water. Regardless of which agency issued the certification.

 

[Gone for diving]

I am over 10 years removed from my GUE class so its entirely possible that much of my opinions are not in line with current thinking.

That blurb in your screenshot - it makes presumptions that need to be challenged.

The implication is that once a diver has been given proper training, there is little, if any difference between doing a dive on open circuit vs. doing the dive in a rebreather. That simply is not true. In the case of light technical dives, the gear is brain dead simple. In my case, I went from diving doubles in recreational dives (NDL) to adding a deco bottle. That's it. The idea that a properly trained rebreather diver will face no more gear related complications than a tech 1 diver is just absurd. In fact, I would argue that a tech 2 diver can do a lifetime of dives at the 200ft range in open circuit that involve far less gear complexity than what you have with a rebreather. You are talking about bigger doubles and two deco bottles. No big deal.
Beyond that, when you are talking about multiple stage bottles along with deco bottles, the amount of gear you are bringing with you might be taking you to the inflection point where the inherent complications of a rebreather becomes about the same or even less than the complications you face with so much open circuit gear.

My personal feeling about rebreathers (JJ or RB80) and sidemount both come down to this - are they the appropriate tools the for the dive a person wants to do? Even though GUE has classes on those topics, whether or not it is DIR to use those configurations, for me, have to do with whether or not they are appropriate for the given dive. A 70ft reef dive with a rebreather in my opinion is absurd. As is sidemount in open water.

Not saying anything about that other than it was top article on the link recommend for gue info.... I thought it was quite ironic just having a quick read....
It has the look that GUE endorsing this.
And has us non gue divers confused.
So of course we will want to ask questions... which is what this thread is about... it's not clear

 

[Adobo]

Not saying anything about that other than it was top article on the link recommend for gue info.... I thought it was quite ironic just having a quick read....
It has the look that GUE endorsing this.
And has us non gue divers confused.
So of course we will want to ask questions... which is what this thread is about... it's not clear

Where did you see it?

Edit: Never mind. I see the full article has been provided by pfcaj.

 

[ginti]

The implication is that once a diver has been given proper training, there is little, if any difference between doing a dive on open circuit vs. doing the dive in a rebreather.

Why? If you read the entire article, it says quite the opposite.

That simply is not true. In the case of light technical dives, the gear is brain dead simple. In my case, I went from diving doubles in recreational dives (NDL) to adding a deco bottle. That's it. The idea that a properly trained rebreather diver will face no more gear related complications than a tech 1 diver is just absurd. In fact, I would argue that a tech 2 diver can do a lifetime of dives at the 200ft range in open circuit that involve far less gear complexity than what you have with a rebreather. You are talking about bigger doubles and two deco bottles. No big deal.
Beyond that, when you are talking about multiple stage bottles along with deco bottles, the amount of gear you are bringing with you might be taking you to the inflection point where the inherent complications of a rebreather becomes about the same or even less than the complications you face with so much open circuit gear.

All of these things are mentioned in the article.

Not saying anything about that other than it was top article on the link recommend for gue info.... I thought it was quite ironic just having a quick read....
It has the look that GUE endorsing this.
And has us non gue divers confused.
So of course we will want to ask questions... which is what this thread is about... it's not clear

In the GUE blog, you can see many different articles from people who think quite differently from GUE. These people usually know what they say, and their approach is usually a very good one, but it doesn't mean that GUE endorses these practices. Instead, it is a signal that GUE is open to improvement and comparison with other ways of diving.

Concerning the specific topic of rebreathes, my humble opinion is that GUE will soon move to CCR1 before tech1. However, they need to be sure that this approach isn't risky. Nowadays, I believe there aren't enough data to say whether CCR before tech is safe or not, for three reasons:
- there are not many GUE divers around, and even less manage to reach the CCR level;
- many divers still do tec2 before CCR1;
- using statistics from other agencies might be risky since other agencies have a very different approach to diving.

I don't know how long it will take, maybe already next year, maybe more.

I will still do tec2 before CCR1

 

[KevinNM]

I am over 10 years removed from my last GUE class so its entirely possible that much of my opinions are not in line with current thinking.

That blurb in your screenshot - it makes presumptions that need to be challenged.

The implication is that once a diver has been given proper training, there is little, if any difference between doing a dive on open circuit vs. doing the dive in a rebreather. That simply is not true. In the case of light technical dives, the gear is brain dead simple. In my case, I went from diving doubles in recreational dives (NDL) to adding a deco bottle. That's it. The idea that a properly trained rebreather diver will face no more gear related complications than a tech 1 diver is just absurd. In fact, I would argue that a tech 2 diver can do a lifetime of dives at the 200ft range in open circuit that involve far less gear complexity than what you have with a rebreather. You are talking about bigger doubles and two deco bottles. No big deal.
Beyond that, when you are talking about multiple stage bottles along with deco bottles, the amount of gear you are bringing with you might be taking you to the inflection point where the inherent complications of a rebreather becomes about the same or even less than the complications you face with so much open circuit gear.

My personal feeling about rebreathers (JJ or RB80) and sidemount both come down to this - are they the appropriate tools the for the dive a person wants to do? Even though GUE has classes on those topics, whether or not it is DIR to use those configurations, for me, have to do with whether or not they are appropriate for the given dive. A 70ft reef dive with a rebreather in my opinion is absurd. As is sidemount in open water. Regardless of which agency issued the certification.

Depends. How would you do a 4 hour 70 foot reef dive trying to photograph easily spooked critters?

 

[Blackcrusader]

Depends. How would you do a 4 hour 70 foot reef dive trying to photograph easily spooked critters?

As slow as possible. Motionless.

 

[Germie]

Depends. How would you do a 4 hour 70 foot reef dive trying to photograph easily spooked critters?

On a ccr, less bubbles, less spooky critters And if you have to be in really shallows with overhaning trees, a sidemount ccr will work. Yes, I have picture taken last year that I have never seen before of mating tench, and yes I was in a real big advantage with my sidemount ccr in only 2m depth.
A completely none-dir dive. So could not be done in any dir philosophy.

But you can follow standards of gue in 1 dive and in another you can follow the standards of your solodiver cert. No problem to use what is needed for the dive.

But also DIR agencies look to other divers and take what is working. It is not only the other side. Computers worked with others, so are now adopted also by dir agencies. If I had done a dir course 10 years ago, I would have learned things completely different from now. I follow a lot of agencies already for a long time and they come more and more closer to each other. Nitrox is adopted in almost every agency, you can do the nitrox open water diver for example by iantd. So the first cert can have nitrox in it from more than 1 agency nowadays.
Cylinders on a leash, it does not work always. If the cylinders are full of nitrox, they will be really heavy and not comfortable there. Also cylinders going upwards due to helium amounts are not so good in caves. Then you need to take them a different way. In open water, it works for sure.
I have seen divers with the oxygen on the leash over a wreck. The oxygen cylinder was hitting the wreck always. So is this the best way then? In my eyes not. Being an adaptive diver is also dir in my eyes, so use what is best for that particular dive.

Remember Hogarthian was the man who invented the backplate and wing which is now the standard in all backmount technical diving. It works with ali's, steels, drysuit and wetsuit.
But in sidemount there is no standard. Steels need other things than ali's.

 

[kensuf]

Concerning the specific topic of rebreathes, my humble opinion is that GUE will soon move to CCR1 before tech1. However, they need to be sure that this approach isn't risky. Nowadays, I believe there aren't enough data to say whether CCR before tech is safe or not, for three reasons:
- there are not many GUE divers around, and even less manage to reach the CCR level;
- many divers still do tec2 before CCR1;
- using statistics from other agencies might be risky since other agencies have a very different approach to diving.

I don't know how long it will take, maybe already next year, maybe more.

I doubt it. On paper, in many respects Tech 1 is similar to AN/Helitrox through TDI (trimix bottom gas, 170' GUE - 150' TDI, 1 deco gas).

TDI won't allow a beginning CCR diver to earn a decompression qualification unless they come into the program as an OC decompression diver. I doubt that GUE, which is fairly conservative in their approach to technical training, would turn around and start doing something more aggressive than other agencies.

 

[Germie]

IANTD has Advanced recreational trimix till 51m on 21/35. So that is in my eyes the same as T1. Most divers do that course on oc first before buying a ccr. At least here where I live (western Europe)