DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[PfcAJ]

I do find it interesting that Halcyon advertises its new Legend™ wing as "is shaped to maximize the ease of horizontal positioning". Something GUE used to teach....now I guess you can forgo instruction and buy gear.

I’m still rockin horseshoe wings

 

[ginti]

@Graeme Fraser @BlueTrin, thanks, I appreciate your comments! However, I am calling out of this debate because I think I described my point of view in the best way I could. So, even though there is undoubtedly a better way to explain it, I do not know what else to add

 

[berndo]

he definitely agrees with GUE principles but does not impose them on others. I think this kind of attitude is an asset to the organisation as well.

I might look like 'agreeing' to you. To me it looks like people just regurgitating stuff they've been told. Of cause it's an asset to a company when their fans talk about it over and over again on the internet. DiveTalk guys are an asset to KISS and Edd and repeat what they've heard form those guys. If you love everything about a certain company and talk about it at nauseam online, you're likely just a fanboy or have skin in the game.
I bet people like Litehedded have a more differentiated opinion on something like gue than a the fanboys. I'd stay away from the fanboys as well as the haters, if I was looking for advice.
There is good stuff about GUE and there is BS stuff about GUE.

 

[BlueTrin]

I might look like 'agreeing' to you. To me it looks like people just regurgitating stuff they've been told. Of cause it's an asset to a company when their fans talk about it over and over again on the internet. DiveTalk guys are an asset to KISS and Edd and repeat what they've heard form those guys. If you love everything about a certain company and talk about it at nauseam online, you're likely just a fanboy or have skin in the game.
I bet people like Litehedded have a more differentiated opinion on something like gue than a the fanboys. I'd stay away from the fanboys as well as the haters, if I was looking for advice.
There is good stuff about GUE and there is BS stuff about GUE.

I understand your point.

My post was mostly about the attitude, I think it’s easy to get annoyed by the repetitive nature of a forum and sometimes other people anger but showing a positive attitude makes any organisation look better (other things being equal)

 

[berndo]

My post was mostly about the attitude, I think it’s easy to get annoyed by the repetitive nature of a forum and sometimes other people anger but showing a positive attitude makes any organisation look better (other things being equal)

I don't care about the attitude. Some people will jump on every thread pushing a certain product over an over and over again. On every thread about sidemount and the same people will jump in every time to push xdeep (even though they probably know anything else). On every thread about cave or intro to tec training the same people will jump in every time in and push gue (even though they probably know anything else). It's marketing bs they're repeating and probably don't even realise it.

 

[LiteHedded]

It’s just an agency you use to learn to scuba. It’s not that serious.

It’s the best instruction available to you IMO but not the only one so if you disagree with the way they do it, just go somewhere else. But this philosophy they have wasn’t just conjured out of thin air. We dive this way for a reason and most of this stuff they had to come by the hard way.
And the standards they hold their instructors to are the toughest bar none and it is done this way for your benefit.

Having said that, some of their **** is dumb. They’re not infallible obviously

 

[berndo]

But this philosophy they have wasn’t just conjured out of thin air.

No, it was conjured out of Florida warm water project cave diving on dpvs. And it makes sense in that context. I also think GI3 rants make sense at the time. In UK liquid mud sump diving, normal euro sump diving or even in Mx it's it doesn't make as much sense.
Having a higher or really any standards for instructors is definitely something some other agencies try for once. It's effed up that most other agenies hand out cave/ccr/etc instructor cards and studend cards to anyone who can hold a credit card and fog up a mirror. Which is what they do.
GUE also has better training material and online resources and they support their instructors by a well done and aggressive marketing stategy allowing them to charge more.
There are many good points about gue but unfortunately lots of dumb stuff too. Being cultish and not allowing people to cross, making diving way more expensive and thereby cutting out alot of younger divers and people with not so well paying job out of the sport needlessly, made up arguments about gear, fake projects for marketing purposes, claiming to care about conservation while flying all over the world to make fun dives and stuff like promoting that pool in Dubai, online and offline fanboys.
The real upside of GUE, and it even says so in that fundie book, is that instructors make a lot more money than they used to.
I think I paid about a grand for cavern through full cave (granted, that was 15 years ago). If you'd do that now in Europe through GUE from fundi through cave through, you'd have to spend at least 7 or 8 grand. I think that's ridiculous for what it is. It's after all just scuba diving. I don't see how this is supposed to be good for diving in general.
It's not that hard to find out what instructors are good and which are not. These days it's even easier than it use to be.

 

[LiteHedded]

That’s a lot to break down but yea backmounted doubles obviously doesn’t work for everything. If you’re looking to do a lot of UK sump diving you’ll be better off elsewhere. For the vast majority of everything else it will get you where you want to go.

It’s also too expensive no argument there.

I agree with not letting instructors crossover though.

I paid about the same for my cave training you did

 

[ginti]

To me it looks like people just regurgitating stuff they've been told.

This is interesting and also a bit of fun. I am not directing this post at you, @berndo, but at other readers developing similar feelings who are not yet conclusive. Feel free to answer, but as I said before, I won't reply if you continue putting words that I never said in my mouth

My previous point is that the buddy system is not a placebo. In medicine, a placebo is a substance or treatment designed to have no therapeutic value. The placebo effect happens when people perceive an improvement in their medical condition, even if the treatment was a placebo. By extension, any situation that makes people feel a change that does not actually exist is a placebo. My point was NOT to prove that the buddy system is inherently better than solo diving. My point was to show that the buddy system has some effects and, therefore, is not a placebo. These two problems are different. Previous posts have evidence that the buddy system is not a placebo (see the accidents where the victim would not have survived without a buddy), so I will leave this point; as I said before, I don't know what to add

Regarding solo vs. buddy, the ultimate answer is in the perception of risk. My approach, which most divers with GUE training follow, is straightforward. If I know my buddies and trust them, I can dive with them up to their or my training & experience limits, depending on who has less experience and training. If I do not know the buddies, I try to know them with an easy dive (within our training and experience, usually an OW dive within 10/15/20m). If I know the buddies and I do not trust them for a specific dive, I can see only three options:

1. Dive with these buddies even if I do not consider them safe.
2. Dive solo.
3. Do not dive.

I choose not to dive. In such a scenario, many people dive solo, and some prefer the first option. Who is right? In my opinion, we cannot say it

Indeed, it is a matter of perceived risk. Although there are external factors to consider (an accident will involve not only the victim but also rescuers, loved people, etc.), this is ultimately a personal evaluation, which is why I do NOT discuss it. If you think diving solo is not that risky for you, just go, I won't stop you, and it will be a pleasure to share a beer hearing your stories.

And, by the way, most divers with GUE training I met have no issue diving with people who regularly dive solo if they know how to be good buddies (I am the first on this list).

 

[berndo]

That’s a lot to break down but ...

Nevermind, I'm just rambling. I using these posts as an excuse not to do other stuff I should be doing right now.

I agree with not letting instructors crossover though.

I meant allowing people to take classes. Not instructors. Why can't someone take a tec 2 or ccr1 without having done fundi. If you cannot get through it, it's a fail. Having to buy the whole program is one thing that makes tham seem cultish.