Why are BP/W users more common on this board than at the beach?

[lamont]

A few years ago a dive shop donated several wing set ups for open water classes. We used them only once. The wings are very hard for a new diver to use. At the surface they force the head down.

They are not for most divers and the LDS has to sell to the average diver unless they know you.

Steel tanks fix that. Tank trim weights or a weighted STA will fix that for AL80s, neutral AL80s are also better. Doesn't take a rocket scientist. Bet you could get a new/average diver setup pretty easy if you knew what you were doing.

 

[kidspot]

Steel tanks fix that. Tank trim weights or a weighted STA will fix that for AL80s, neutral AL80s are also better. Doesn't take a rocket scientist. Bet you could get a new/average diver setup pretty easy if you knew what you were doing.

Actually I've found just the opposite (just goes to show we are all different) With AL80's I use a channel weight and sta weight to move weight toward my head making me more "head heavy". That way when I'm under the water my natural inclination is horizontal. At the surface with the wing partially inflated my weight belt and other weight become a counter weight leaving me upright (The air will move to the top of the wing, which is at neck level) or fully inflated I lay on my back and the weight keeps me from rolling over onto my face (actually takes a bit of effort to roll onto my face so I can see under the surface)

Tim

 

[SeanQ]

The only time I have EVER had ANY difficulty keeping my head above water was while wearing a BP/W for the first time. The entry required me to roll into a shallow area so naturally I partially inflated my wing prior to entering. While I thought I had only added a little bit of air to the wing, I had actually inflated it a lot. Because it was rental BP/W, the harness was not as tight as it should have been. When I jumped in the wing understandably rose up and pitched me forward. Because the water was shallow I was able to stand up, tighten the straps, dump some air and fix the problem without further incident.

While the myth that a back inflate will drown you at the surface is complete bollocks, I understand how it came into being.

 

[kidspot]

The only time I have EVER had ANY difficulty keeping my head above water was while wearing a BP/W for the first time. The entry required me to roll into a shallow area so naturally I partially inflated my wing prior to entering. While I thought I had only added a little bit of air to the wing, I had actually inflated it a lot. Because it was rental BP/W, the harness was not as tight as it should have been. When I jumped in the wing understandably rose up and pitched me forward. Because the water was shallow I was able to stand up, tighten the straps, dump some air and fix the problem without further incident.

While the myth that a back inflate will drown you at the surface is complete bollocks, I understand how it came into being.

That makes sense - a life jacket if not secured properly will also put your nose below water...

Tim

 

[paolov]

using BP/W makes me more comfortable . i have removed the crotch strap for almost two years now.

however i added a chest strap. the chest strap has quick releases, however they are only held in place by good quality duct tape.

a LDS let me use an EXD model. a much more recreational BP/W than the TREKWINGS that i got fond of using.

 

[d@n]

A few years ago a dive shop donated several wing set ups for open water classes. We used them only once. The wings are very hard for a new diver to use. At the surface they force the head down.

They are not for most divers and the LDS has to sell to the average diver unless they know you.

I didn't experience this. My first dive with BP/W was with a 11 ga Fred T SS plate, Fred's light STA's a single AL80, and a 5 mil 2-piece.
Of course, I did enough research to know not to fully inflate the wing like some OW classes teach people to do with our jacket BC's.
My instructor did show us how he floats on his back using his back inflate BC.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's a common misconception that back-inflate BCDs, and wings, will force you face-down. This will only occur if you are not using the equipment properly, which usually boils down to one of two reasons ...

- the harness doesn't fit you correctly and is riding up around your ears, forcing the wing above your head
- you are very overweighted, forcing you to overinflate the wing to keep from sinking

Either of these is a misuse of the equipment, and can be easily remedied.

It's a mistake to try to take the "easy" approach by avoiding familiarity with this type of gear, rather than teaching proper technique right from the get-go. Students should be familiar with the proper use of more than one type of BCD, so as to make an informed choice when they purchase their own gear. Mainly the reason instructors don't do so is because of the time constraints placed on today's OW class ... and because of the business constraints placed on the instructor by the LDS who wants you to promote the gear that is sold by that shop. While these are understandable, it does no one any good to promote a misconception that the gear is difficult to use ... it's not. Nor does it do the student any good to teach to the lowest common denominator ... most OW students are capable of learning a great deal more than they are taught.

FWIW - in my Basic Open Water class our YMCA instructor showed both styles of BCD (jacket and back-inflate) and taught us how to arch our back and rest comfortably in a back-inflate BCD during the pool sessions ... and he doesn't even use a BP/W. The technique, however, is the same.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[detroit diver]

using BP/W makes me more comfortable . i have removed the crotch strap for almost two years now.

however i added a chest strap. the chest strap has quick releases, however they are only held in place by good quality duct tape.

.................

I think I'll buy a poodle jacket, remove the chest strap, install a crotch strap, cut off the inflator hose, and install holes for my legs......

 

[lamont]

Actually I've found just the opposite (just goes to show we are all different) With AL80's I use a channel weight and sta weight to move weight toward my head making me more "head heavy". That way when I'm under the water my natural inclination is horizontal. At the surface with the wing partially inflated my weight belt and other weight become a counter weight leaving me upright (The air will move to the top of the wing, which is at neck level) or fully inflated I lay on my back and the weight keeps me from rolling over onto my face (actually takes a bit of effort to roll onto my face so I can see under the surface)

Tim

Actually, that's not the opposite of the effect that I got from AL80s. They're buoyant tanks so they would basically try to become the highest thing attatched to me. If I was underwater and horizontal, they would drag me more vertical since my weight belt would drop. If I was on the surface and vertical they would insead force me more horizontal and try to put my face in the water. Basically my trim with an AL80 seemed to be at about 45 degrees, which is about the worst possible trim.

The issue, though, was not the BP/W, but the crappy buoyancy characteristics of the AL80. Switching to a steel tank fixed both the head-down at surface issue, and my trim issues. The steel tank puts more weight up front to push my head down when I'm trying to be horizontal in the water. When I'm at the surface, the weight of the tank on my back will keep me floating just like a life jacket. I've actually done tests where I've positioned myself in the water face-down and the steel tank has rolled me over onto my back.

YMMV, I dive in colder waters with a drysuit and a bunch of insulation. I have no idea how a BP/W with a 3 mil or less wetsuit trims out with different tanks.

 

[Tom725]

setup pretty easy if you knew what you were doing.

Thank you for your kind response. I certianally do not know what I am doing. I will now begin teaching back plates, full face mask, nitrox, tri-mix, extended range and hard hat diving in my basic open water class.

In a back pack set up, the lift is all on the back instead of arround you. It is true under many circumstances that OW students can be introduced to both set ups. However, there are also many who have a hard enough time with the regulator much less a back pack where they need to arch their back to stay afloat.

For safety reasons, I need to get to know my students before I introduce other equipment.

My LDS has never asked me to use only their equipment. They do not sell the regulator I use or the drysuit I use. Most of my other equipment I bought there over the years. OH, ans my wet suit still says Performance Divers down the leg.