Why 15 ft for a safety stop?

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murdrcycle:
My computer says 20 ft, my class (and many divers here) said 33 ft, but the truth is that any time we breath underwater regardless of depth we are taking on excess nitrogen?

This is all based on Haldanean modeling. At any depth below 1 atm (14.7psi) you will have additional nitrogen loading. At the surface at a baometric pressure of 14.7 psi your body cannot absorb any more nitrogen based on this pressure...In effect we are saturated with nitrogen at this pressure. If you go to 1ft below the surface, even though it is an extremely small amount, you are in fact absorbing more nitrogen. Thing is, again dealing with Haldane and compartment theory, above 20 feet you will never exceed the maximum allowable loading of any compartment no matter how long you stay, which is why you will not suffer DCS at 20 ft or above.

Conclusions regarding safety stops had to do with research using Doppler to detect bubbles in the bloodstream. It was found that a safety stop for 1 minute at 20 feet and 4 minutes at 10 feet had the lowest detection of bubble via Doppler. As far as the 3 minute safety stop at 15 feet I assume they found a compromise depth that still showed hardly any detectable bubbles via Doppler, i.e...for simplicity. It is easier to stay at 15 ft than at 10 feet and you only have one stop at 15 ft compared to a 1 minute stop at 20 ft followed by a 4 minute stop at 10 ft.
Research also showed that even though a slower ascent rate of 30 ft/minute did reduce nitrogen loading as compared to an ascent rate of 60 ft/minute both results were still much higher than doing a safety stop at 15 ft for 3 minutes
 
Thing is, again dealing with Haldane and compartment theory, below 20 feet you will never exceed the maximum allowable loading of any compartment no matter how long you stay.
Just for clarity: shallower than 20 feet.
Conclusions regarding safety stops had to do with research using Doppler to detect bubbles in the bloodstream. It was found that a safety stop for 1 minute at 20 feet and 4 minutes at 10 feet had the lowest detection of bubble via Doppler. As far as the 3 minute safety stop at 15 feet I assume they found a compromise depth that still showed hardly any detectable bubbles via Doppler, i.e...for simplicity. It is easier to stay at 15 ft than at 10 feet and you only have one stop at 15 ft compared to a 1 minute stop at 20 ft followed by a 4 minute stop at 10 ft.
Research also showed that even though a slower ascent rate of 30 ft/minute did reduce nitrogen loading as compared to an ascent rate of 60 ft/minute both results were still much higher than doing a safety stop at 15 ft for 3 minutes
The practice of "safety stops" predates the existance of Dopplers. In point of fact the Doppler studies simply conformed what many experienced divers had already concluded: a few hundred psi spent at 10 feet made a lot more sense than it did being carried back to the surface as a "reserve."
 
rawls,

did you mean above 20 feet? I agree that at 1 ft of depth you add nitrogen; no doubt; simple physics.

Thanks Thal, you beat me to it
 
Thalassamania:
Just for clarity: shallower than 20 feet.

underwasser bolt:
did you mean above 20 feet?

Yeah I caught that and corrected it, but thanks for pointing it out nevertheless.

The practice of "safety stops" predates the existance of Dopplers. In point of fact the Doppler studies simply conformed what many experienced divers had already concluded: a few hundred psi spent at 10 feet made a lot more sense than it did being carried back to the surface as a "reserve."

Thal...I recall having read this but forgot about it...Thanks for the reminder...
 
Yeah I caught that and corrected it, but thanks for pointing it out nevertheless.



Thal...I recall having read this but forgot about it...Thanks for the reminder...
Us Doxa divers got's ta stick ta-get'er.:D
 
Thalassamania:
Us Doxa divers got's ta stick ta-get'er

Thal...

Sub 300T Seahunter...2003 re-issue...1000 made...#735....

Got it at a really good price. Couldn't believe it was let go of at the price I paid. Already had 2 offers for quite a bit more than I paid.
I politely said...Nah...

Please don't tell me you have a 1967....

Dirk would be proud....:)
 
I have a 1967, got it new as a present, a little worn now.
 
Therefore, it would seem to me that a stop at 30 ft followed by another at 20 or 15 would make more sense, or even better would be to slow your descent so gradually at the 30 ft mark that it takes 4-5 minutes to surface from 30 ft. That would allow for the most gradual return to normal as possible, and it is safe because as long as you are less than 30 feet you aren't taking on any more nitrogen.

First off, the real kinetics of nitrogen in the human body are unknown. Although I believe the Navy has done some actual tissue measurements of nitrogen tensions, those data are not available to the public, and what I have been told is that they are very limited. What we use to build our ascent strategies is the output from mathematical MODELLING of nitrogen kinetics, based on a combination of the physics of diffusion and equilibration of gases in liquids, and experimental observations like Haldane's studies of goats.

What matters, it appears, is the RATIO of the gas that's dissolved in tissues to the pressure of the gas you're breathing. Haldane, when he compressed and decompressed his goats, decided that you could tolerate a ratio of 2:1; that is, if you were at 4ATA and came up quickly to less than 2ATA, you were likely to get bent. In fact, since it's the nitrogen that matters, it wasn't really 2:1, but 1.58:1, but the idea is the same. Although this concept has been refined with time, the models still use an acceptable ratio idea to control ascents.

The consequence of the ratio idea is that ascent rates have to slow as you get closer to the surface. If you look at the output from decompression software, you'll see that most of them create an ascent that has a curve to it. The shallower you get, the longer the stops, so your ascent gently curves you to the surface. What the shape of that curve depends on the assumptions that underlie the model. Pure diffused gas models send you quickly shallow and have you stay there a long time. Bubble models tend to slow the ascent deeper and make the curve more gradual, because staying deeper is thought to control bubble expansion.

The steady ascent to a shallow safety stop is a diffused gas approach to decompression. The steady stops from half max depth to the surface is more of a hybrid approach, doing some time deeper to control bubbles.

Obviously, this is a very simplistic explanation.

My final comment is that, since tissues in the body vary in the amount of blood flow they get, and in their composition, it is thought that various areas of the body absorb nitrogen at different rates. This is modeled by tissue "compartments" in decompression theory. Very slow compartments are thought to equilibrate over very long periods of time. It is quite possible to do a short, deep dive, come up to 30 feet, and still be ABSORBING nitrogen in the slowest compartments of the model. But we will never spend enough time in the water to load those compartments to where a direct ascent to the surface will exceed the acceptable ratio for remaining asymptomatic, so in essence that absorption doesn't matter to us.
 
Regardless of which curve is best, I discovered as a divemaster about 15 years ago that for most recreational divers, it is imperative that you request that they make a stop at 30 feet. This was before deep stops were discussed much.

If recreational divers (ones that do not dive often) try to stop at 30 feet, often they will lose control of their bouyancy a little and float up to 15 feet, but USUALLY these people were able to arrest their ascent at 10 or 15 feet and still complete a decent safety stop. Before I discovered this and followed the conventional visdom to simply stop at 15 feet MANY (way too many) would lose it and pop up all the way to the surface.

I personally do a deep stop also, but for typical recreational divers who ascend too fast, too often, a 30 foot stop is very useful. Before it was accepted, i would make up a BS reason and just say that we are all going to stop at 30 feet and check eachother's air supply. This little "task", seemed like a good (and somewhat reasonable) ploy to get cooperation. I taught it to other divemasters and they were also very happy with the significant reduction in customers poping to the surface.
 
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