who is more likely of a dive accident?

[PavoDive]

... because of the pavlovian, ingrained response to "save" them to avoid liability......screw liability.....as long as you can justify logically your response for not taking action in that situation, you may be sued, but I am doubtful that it would be successful.

I think I didn't make my point clear enough...

It's more on the line of what Tom725 said, rescuing a guy (even if that's putting oneself on the line) is more of a response to training than a response to the fear of being sued. I've been in that situation, and the last --LAST-- thing that comes to your mind is a lawyer. You're rescuing the guy not because you may be sued, you rescue the guy to avoid seeing him die like a dog.

But even this is not the whole story, because, as I said in my previous post, in the heat of the situation you assess everything and you find yourself capable of handling it. Guys, these accidents seldom happen when you are at 60' and the soon-to-be-victim is at 300'. That surely will be an easy decision. No. These things happen when you are at 100', and the other guy is at 115'. Sinking fast? maybe, but when you think of the guy dying, those 15' are "spitting distance" (add narcosis, and you'll have a powerful "I got to save this guy" cocktail).

I sympathize for DMs who have been hurt in either type of incident, as no matter how you look at it, it is a selfless act. I just think sometimes the tough decisions being made are not the right decisions.

I totally agree with both assertions. It is a selfless act; and it's probably not the right one. But think about what I've said about whatching passively somebody die, and about what Tom725 (too much Toms in this thread! ) said of conditioned response, that shall give you a new insight into the problem.

Happy bubbles,

Gio

 

[Ayisha]

Guys, these accidents seldom happen when you are at 60' and the soon-to-be-victim is at 300'. That surely will be an easy decision. No. These things happen when you are at 100', and the other guy is at 115'. Sinking fast? maybe, but when you think of the guy dying, those 15' are "spitting distance" (add narcosis, and you'll have a powerful "I got to save this guy" cocktail).

That's true. It can seem like the person is right there, you'll get to them right away, and they just keep slipping away faster.

I'm not even a DM, but I've had 2 buddy situations like this.

One was with a woman who could not control her buoyancy at all. I got buddied with her in Cozumel when her regular leader buddy was not on the boat. She kept having runaway ascents, and I pulled her down and even controlled her BC about a dozen times in one 90 foot multi-level dive. Most of the time, I caught her within several feet. She even blew her safety stop and I pulled her down by her fin. I believed that her fin was just outside my grasp, and I almost had it, but she was rushing up so fast that by the time I caught her I was above 10 feet and she was near the surface. I had done the rescue course just a few months before, but all I could think about was to save her rather than let her go and not risk myself. An instructor later told me I should have just let her go and let her dive be over.

The second time was this summer. A non-diving Mom came over and quietly told the leader that her son needs to be with an instuctor since he is only 14 and he is "too comfortable" and a bit of a "cowboy". The instructor said ok. Well, the only leader went in first, so somehow this boy got paired with me. He had many runaway ascents on a 40 foot dive, and I pulled him down for the first few. By that time, I was really p'd off, decided not to risk myself any further, and just watched in amazement at the rest of his runaway ascents. After the dive, I told him he was really overweighted, and to take some weight off, and keep his hand near his inflator/deflator to react quickly when there's a slight change. He had to really fill up his BC to get off the bottom, and then when he went shallower, he was flying up. I had to release a ton of air from his BC for him to descend. I told the leader privately what had happened, and that this guy really needed a leader, and I could not take responsibility for him. The leader dove with him the second dive. Afterward, the young guy said that he did much better on the second dive, and was more comfortable with less weight. BUT he had a major headache that he didn't have earlier. His mom was right there when he said that, and knew to watch him. The leader said and did nothing. I would have thought that oxygen might have been a good idea, considering his profile and since he had a headache, but I didn't say anything and neither did the leader.

After both of these incidents, years apart, I kicked myself for going after those two divers repeatedly, sometimes too rapidly.

I don't envy you guys at all! :11:

 

[gangrel441]

But even this is not the whole story, because, as I said in my previous post, in the heat of the situation you assess everything and you find yourself capable of handling it. Guys, these accidents seldom happen when you are at 60' and the soon-to-be-victim is at 300'. That surely will be an easy decision. No. These things happen when you are at 100', and the other guy is at 115'. Sinking fast? maybe, but when you think of the guy dying, those 15' are "spitting distance" (add narcosis, and you'll have a powerful "I got to save this guy" cocktail).

Agreed, and this is where training and experience comes in...because if you're at 100, and the other guy is at 115 and sinking, adreneline tells you that you should go save 'em, but that tank full of EANx32 on your back says "I dare you to drop below 110."

Just read a story in a dive mag about an instructor that was doing tec cert work with a student on a wreck in 100 ft. All went well until the instructor lost sight of the student and vice versa. Instructor penetrated the wreck deeper looking for the student. Student initiated lost buddy procedure (as they agreed upon) and exited the wreck, waited a minute, ascended 20ft for more no deco time, waited 5 min, then returned to the boat and alerted the captain.

The instructor had entered what should have been an inaccessable part of the boat without a line, got wedged in, couldn't penetrate further, and couldn't get out the way he came.

I'm not saying that this instructor was looking to get a star on his shoulder for being the big hero, but he definately neglected the contingency plan and exceeded his limitations, and while his buddy made it out, the instuctor never saw another sunrise.

I have this growing theory that many times, tough decisions are actually easy decisions that we don't want to make.