who is more likely of a dive accident?

[PavoDive]

Another one demonstrated above which you need to include, however, is divers/instructors exceeding their limits in an attempt to rescue another diver. The oft forgotten rule here is that no one ever helped another diver by becoming a victim themselves. What one in the heat of the moment may think is being heroic, often turns out to in fact be stupid and detrimental to the rescue effort.

I don't think most ins/DMs in this scenario would think of their acts as "heroic". If you've ever been on that scenario, as Tom's brother, you'd know how complex it is. Thinking that the guy sees it as heroic is a bit naive, and please take no offence with this.

There you are, with the responsibility both moral and legal (and sometimes the liability) of rescuing somebody, in a situation that you think you can control and with a bitter feeling of seeing the guy die in front of your eyes... hmmm... a pretty tough call, certainly.

"One victim is always better than two" should be any rescuer's lema, but, oh man, how difficult it is to assess the certainty of having two, one or none.

Safe bubbling, Gio.

 

[fpsndiver]

I guess that is kind of what I am trying to get at.....DiveMasters and Instructors are beat to death with "Liability" it is your "responsibility".....to the point where they are so scared of being sued that they defy common sense. At some point, people are responsible for their actions. I don't think my brother had a hero complex at all, he didn't give a darn about being some savior hero. He was just trying to make a living doing what he loved.....and probably worried that if a customer got hurt that he would lose his job. He is not the only DM I have seen chase people down. I just think that at some point, people have to accept the risks that they have taken, and be responsible for their actions......this is pervasive in society now.....blaming someone/something else for one's actions.....i.e. "I was playing vice city all the time on my Sony PS, and that trained me to kill cops, that is why I shot that officer." BS

Be responsible for your own actions, and don't dive beyond your limitations, and don't depend on someone else to get you out of a bind that you created..........people who defy all of the above are what get DM's hurt, because of the pavlovian, ingrained response to "save" them to avoid liability......screw liability.....as long as you can justify logically your response for not taking action in that situation, you may be sued, but I am doubtful that it would be successful.

Tom

 

[gangrel441]

Pavo, fps....I agree with what you guys are saying, and apologize if my previous post came across harsh. My main point is that often taking high risk to help another diver isn't really helping at all, it ultimately is just divinding the other available resources between two victims instead of one. Bu the time that OOA beneath you guys paniced and went up the anchor line, as he was passing you, it was already too late. Perhaps hero complex is the wrong term for it in some circumstances...but in rescuing another diver as well as dealing with your own problems, there has to be a point where we can flip that instinct switch off in the best interest of everyone involved.

 

[fpsndiver]

Gangrel,

Wasn't mad at anyone who posted here, and the original poster had some valid points as well, however, sometimes (as pavo eluded to) one must put themselves in the shoes of who they are being critical of. And of course, I agree with you that at some point, rescuing another diver may be the wrong solution. I believe sometime back, maybe in June, a DM and diver died in the Bay Islands, and I don't know what happened, but everyone said that the DM was a great diver.......sounds like he may have been trying to help the other guy, and the victim turned the rescuer into a victim. I choose my dive buddies very carefully, and sane, calm under stress types are who I dive with. Sometimes a DM is at the mercy of the list of customers they are provided, and that is what is scary about their job........as stated before by another poster here "you can have that job"...or something to that effect.

Tom

 

[gangrel441]

fpsndiver,

I agree wholeheartedly, and there are times when the risk taken is a reasonable gamble that doesn't pay off. I just think many of these situations are ones where the gamble is not a reasonable one, and the reaction should be to seek more help and hope for the best. I sympathize for DMs who have been hurt in either type of incident, as no matter how you look at it, it is a selfless act. I just think sometimes the tough decisions being made are not the right decisions. Keeping in mind what started this thread, I am speaking of the type of incedent such as the Blue Hole/Egypt one where the DM gets himself toxed saving a client who went too deep. If you are breathing a mix that won't let you go safely beyond 110, don't go to 130 to save a client. Difficult decision, but easy at the same time. Likewise, you probably saved your brother from serious injury or death by stopping him when he wanted to grab that OOA diver on the way up. You made the right call, your brother almost didn't. I don't mean to cast blame, only emphasize how important it is to keep an objective viewpoint in such matters.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

Clearly these people are exposed:

1. Tech-wannabies (Who are not!)
2. New girlfriends! (...of experienced divers, who are pushed through an OW course and then off to dive with the though guy with new or borrowed gear...)

 

[fpsndiver]

Clearly these people are exposed:

1. Tech-wannabies (Who are not!)
2. New girlfriends! (...of experienced divers, who are pushed through an OW course and then off to dive with the though guy with new or borrowed gear...)

Kompressor,

Do you mean that those types are more prone to causing these problems? Not quite sure what you meant there.

Tom

 

[BigBoB]

do between 7 to 8 CESAS in one day, plus the normal 2 dives and an extra night dive.
That is more than 11 ascends per day. Simply crazy.
QUOTE]


I try to do cesa on the first dive of the day on the second day of diving. Once did 16 in a morning and did not get bent (oh my). I think that as long as you maintain ascent rates, try to do the skill at the begining of a dive day and KEEP CONTROL OF THE STUDENT DIVER you should be ok.......hopefully.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

Kompressor,

Do you mean that those types are more prone to causing these problems? Not quite sure what you meant there.

Tom

I mean they are exposed to accidents. Sorry if this thread was more into DM's and instructors. That's not what I had in mind.

 

[Tom725]

The vast majority of instructors and dive masters are responsible and well trained professionals. To imply that most or many will ignor safety rules for money or that a new diver knows more about safety than an experienced pro is rediculous.

When something goes wrong under water an instructors instinct is to do what it takes to resolve the problem. Occasionally an instructor will put himself at risk to perform a rescue. That does not mean they are not being responsible. They are reacting to training and instict AND taking responsibility for their students and clients. Responsibility is a heavy burden.

Multiple CESA's, if done right, do not signifgantly increase risk of injury unless done from debts beyond standards either in debth or in numbers of students. Certification classes are most often done at debts and within time restraints that there is little risk of injury due to DCS.

I believe the number of injuries is inversely proportional to the level of training IE more OW divers are injured tha Instructors particularly if you consider the fact that a professional is liable to do far more dives than a new diver.