White lies told by your LDS when you first started

[radagalf]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


An eternal debate. Whether we like it or not divers show a strong tendancy to buy the equipment used by the teaching staff. Keep in mind that 99% of the equipment we sell is to students or former students. A dive shop around here isn't like a grocery store or a department store where you have a diverse group comming through all the time...

I have to agree with what Mike says above.

The LDS I am with has never said anything about my gear, they accept it as MY gear. I have a pair of Mares fins which I adore, and we don't sell Mares, but our biggest competitor does. They've never said anything. Of course, they prefer it if any gear that I purchase now is from them, which I have no problem with for 2 reasons:
1) it is great gear, and I know I will be satisfied with it
2) they treat me well and give me great prices

My personal opinion is that if a dive shop asks you to get rid of your EXISTING equipment, then there's a problem, but if they say try and pick some of our stuff up when you are looking for gear, we'll help you out... than why not?? You get great gear, you help out your dive shop. If you dont' feel like helping your dive shop, than obviously they are lacking in something, whether it be products, service, or their disposition.

Just my .02.

 

[Straggler Dave]

I once had a dive shop owner tell me that I should be diving steel tanks rather than Aluminium, as steel tanks have no buoyancy swing from full to empty.

I tried to explain to him that buoyancy swing was dependant only on the mass of gas breathed, but he wouldn't listen. :shaking:

 

[Genesis]

I have to agree with what Mike says above.

The LDS I am with has never said anything about my gear, they accept it as MY gear. I have a pair of Mares fins which I adore, and we don't sell Mares, but our biggest competitor does. They've never said anything. Of course, they prefer it if any gear that I purchase now is from them, which I have no problem with for 2 reasons:
1) it is great gear, and I know I will be satisfied with it
2) they treat me well and give me great prices

My view is that if they want you to be a walking billboard for their hardware, then they should give it to you at cost, and document that it is indeed at cost.

If they do that, and only want you to do so on a "when you need it" basis, then you'll obviously buy it from them, since you're getting a better price there than anywhere else. There is no need to force the issue in that case.

Its like the "billboard" folks - they pay YOU to put that thing on your property. Or the people who get paid to drive around in a car with some logo painted on it - they pay YOU to do that.

If they want you to wear their stuff regardless of whether or not you need it, then IMHO they can supply it - free - for you to use.

To ask that you make them profit twice - once by teaching for them, the second time by buying gear from them at a profit to them, is IMHO over the line.

 

[Raven C]

I have read this thread and stayed back because it would be easy to get caught up in the humor and frustration of the idiots we run into in LDS situations. And, because SeaJay tried to bait me in. Hah I showed you.

But, some of the things that you have experienced I have too. Some others that are equally frustrating and humerous are:

R "Have you heard of DIR? Do you know anything about it?"
LDS " Oh yead, Diving is Recreational. It's like a diving support group where you meet other divers and do stuff together."
I thought to myself. Well, sortof.

I once inquired about renting gear to dive a lake in the area and I was told that they don't rent gear for people to dive in that lake because a dive team was once scared off by the hugh catfish "as big as a man."

I was told by the same DS that I should only wear split fins because whales were the fastest swimmers in the ocean and they have split fins.

I was also told once that I had my gear set up wrong. The long hose is for a secondary air source or a console only.
--Right, let me make a note not to dive with you. I thought.

I was told, you don't want a BP because they will hurt your back and cause back problems. BCs don't have anything firm in the back and they won't hurt you.
--Right, check out the one on the shelf, it has a BP it is just covered with all that Sh!t, I thought.

When checking into my DM certification, I was told "You can't take the class unless you buy my gear. But I will give you a 10% discount if you by the top of the line." When I questioned this, I was told that when I teach the class I have to encourage the students to buy from the shop and our gear all has to be the same so as not to confuse the students. "Then, why can't I just use your gear in that case? Why can't I explain my gear to the students and tell them that standard BCs like what they are using is typical for recreational diving such as the training they are getting in that class and encourage them to educate themselves on what is best for them?", I asked. The response was if you want to take my certification class you have to buy my gear.
--Well, people I have nothing against Tusa, but that "ain't" the BP and wings I set my heart on ya know? Why should anyone be forced to buy "their" gear to get a certification. I understand acquiring a list of required gear but "their" gear. Or why be ridiculed because they don't understand other gear configurations?

He's another. "Girls can't use a BP and wings." "Why?"

I have been told that girls should wear a certain BC for support. We'll for your information, even the Diva which claims to have female breast support -- Doesn't.

I was also told "You have to have a mask with a purge valve or you can't clear it." Hello, clearing a mask is taught in OW and comes second nature once you learn it. I bet most divers don't even think when they clear their mask they just do it and keep on going.

In response to OOA situations, typically, you go over with your buddy before the dive which secondary air source to use for OOA and where that is. The only real out of air I have witness or been involved in gauges were check only because it was the instructor that was OOA, can you believe that, what a great instructor. Anyway, I am sure that most OOA would not lead to a search for the most PSI, only a quest for air now. I believe that whatever training a person has, donating a primary is best because it temporarily addresses the situation immediately. It is working give them a breath. If you find that your secondary isn't working, signal back to them. While I LMAO at the mask grabbing technique discribed earlier. I would kick some a$$ if anyone did that to me if in the off chance that I loose my cool in an OOA and don't signal plain enough for you to know I am out of air before I reach for your primary. The important thing to remember is diving while it is an awesome and fun thing is serious and OOA is not a joking matter particullarly to the person out of air. And, SeaJay is right you may not always be with "your buddy" there are plenty people on dive trips and dive buddies become dive groups real quick.

On a more serious note: Lately I was told by the manager of our LDS and a dive master instructor that a 130 foot ascent in 60 seconds is infact safe. Hello, that is two times plus NOT.

I suggest that people educate themselves. I know we all look to others for advice and information but don't take it all for face value. Take the time to check it out.

As far as gear goes. PLease do check it out. Find out what is best for you. Then when someone questions your gear, you can explain why you dive that gear. Maybe they will have a new view.

Lastely, on a humerous note: I was told that bouyancy is only needed when you aren't at the bottom and therefore not a big deal. PADI teaches get on your knees.
--Right, let me make a note not to dive with you either.
R"PADI teaches stay off the bottom, don't touch coral, don't silt." "PADI instructors make you get on your knees."

Dive safe and laugh at the LDS Urban Legends. R

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...


My view is that if they want you to be a walking billboard for their hardware, then they should give it to you at cost, and document that it is indeed at cost.

If they do that, and only want you to do so on a "when you need it" basis, then you'll obviously buy it from them, since you're getting a better price there than anywhere else. There is no need to force the issue in that case.

Its like the "billboard" folks - they pay YOU to put that thing on your property. Or the people who get paid to drive around in a car with some logo painted on it - they pay YOU to do that.

If they want you to wear their stuff regardless of whether or not you need it, then IMHO they can supply it - free - for you to use.

To ask that you make them profit twice - once by teaching for them, the second time by buying gear from them at a profit to them, is IMHO over the line.

Well...I don't know about the shops near you but...My Dive Masters can dive trimix because I make it cheap enough. they were able to do the class because I got it for them at 1/3 the going rate. Less if you take into account they didn't need to pay instructor expenses. I set up a local tank inspection class. I am sending them to a reg repair class. Now these folks are good and they work hard and I compensate them the best I can. I don't force a new DM to buy new gear to work for me but on the other hand I have never found a NEW DM who came in off the street good enough for me to use. I MUST TRAIN them. Now these DMs of mine are saving hundreds probably more like thousands a year. If they can't see their way to use the gear I sell (when it fits their needs of course) then they can go somewhere else. I am the guy paying for the party. everyone is having a ball on MY NICKLE.

Whether any of you like it or not instructors and Divemasters are billboards. that's why the manufacturers give Key person discounts. What business sense does it make to pay someone to stand around your classes advertisng for someone else.

But equipment isn't all...I also expect their behavior, skill and attitudes to be an advertisement for me and my shop. Pardon me but I will decide what kind of image my shop, it's gear and it's teaching staff will present to the public. They can fit in with the overall scheme or they can go somewhere else. They can be on the team and be an asset or not.

 

[Genesis]

Whether any of you like it or not instructors and Divemasters are billboards. that's why the manufacturers give Key person discounts. What business sense does it make to pay someone to stand around your classes advertisng for someone else.

But equipment isn't all...I also expect their behavior, skill and attitudes to be an advertisement for me and my shop. Pardon me but I will decide what kind of image my shop, it's gear and it's teaching staff will present to the public. They can fit in with the overall scheme or they can go somewhere else. They can be on the team and be an asset or not.

We used to a fair number of trade shows, and had a lot of people in the field doing various installation and other work.

We had "walking billboards", as you put it (and as I put it!)

Guess what?

I provided them their uniforms, the T-shirts and caps, and other "branded" items for them to use. I also provided our staff with the computers at their desk, the phone they used, and other materials. If they were expected to use their personal automobile I reimbursed that use at the IRS-acceptable rate (which is actually pretty good), and for extreme situations I would either let them use one of the "corporately-funded" vehicles or have the company provide them a rental.

Likewise, we had "branded" tools and implements. None of my employees ever bought any of them for use on the clock - they were provided as part of their "kit" that came with being an employee.

I paid for it, because that's my job as a business owner if I want someone to be a "billboard" for my company.

This kind of thing is like having a suit store and demanding that ALL your salespeople wear YOUR suits (as a clothing dealer) but expecting them to buy them off the rack! No way! Ain't gonna happen. Or expecting someone to buy a SPECIFIC laptop to demo your software - from you - as your employee.

I'd never agree to that as an employee and I never expected it as an employer.

I have no problem with expecting your "emmissaries" or "representatives" to wear your gear and strut your shop's stuff. "Uniforms" are part of the gig, IMHO.

What I do have a problem with is expecting them to do that BUT also expecting them to put money in your pocket through purchases of that gear so they can make you money.

That's rediculous.

I used to outfit people all the time with various items I wanted them to use and display. But none of them were expected to buy those items (I provided them at company expense, for use on company time) and, if they wanted some for their personal, off-the-clock use, they were welcome to them at my cost.

I had an awful lot of staff do exactly that - whether it was "branded" coffee mugs, computers, test equipment, clothing or various other items they used in their daily lives both in and out of the office. I saw no reason whatsoever to attempt to profit from my staff member's purchases from the company - in fact, quite the opposite - simply by being my emmissary they are providing more than adequate value to the firm for me to sell to
them at cost. If you wanted a desktop computer or internet router for your home you were welcome to get it from us at our cost. Just cut me a check - at my cost - and you're welcome to it. The only "issue" is that it had to be for your personal use - if I caught you reselling them that would get 'ya fired.

That, of course, is because I understood that when you employ someone who is (you hope!) making you money, its pretty darn insulting to expect them to make you even MORE money by simply signing on with you in the form of a "forced buy-in" of equipment at above your cost!

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't disagree. However a DM or an instructor is going to own their own gear. I certainly have enough regs, wings ect around that I could dress one up if I needed to. Like I say if a DM has good gear that they don't want to replace we don't force them. Also, like I said before it's a two way street. If the staff doesn't want to use the gear we have it might be a sign that we have the wrong gear (or the wrong DM). For instance two of my DM's who are cave divers started picking up some DR stuff. I first found a place to get it for them (at the same price to them) and second eventually got a DR dealership. End of conflict. When a DM is buying new equipment there isn't any way to get a better deal than what they get from us unless they buy used or something. And yes they know what I pay and what I am charging. The risk here for me is the new DM who takes the deal on gear and then never works any classes. I only extend these benefits to active working DM's. There is no cash to pay these people but with the many perks I think they make way more than me on my store. For instance you just baught a fill station. I made these guys blendors (cheap) and let them mix with my stuff for a little more than the price of the gas. They have almost unlimite access to a full fill station with ZERO up front investment. What's that worth in a years time if the're diving mix? I don't think it's too much to ask that they give the brands that we carry some real consideration. Now, they can be hardnosed about it all and demand I do this, that and the other and then I can't afford them.

 

[westcoastdiver]

Well as an OWI and I have also done a lot of training with other agencies (2000 + dives).I do find that the ow and the aow should be one corse! but thats another rant. I make it a point not to bash any other agencies untill I have a chance to try there ideas. I have found it great practice to make everone I dive with aware of how my gear works ooa ect... And from time to time I have to put it to test. I do find that my LDS rules! They are open to what I do have to say and dont force issues or gear on me. We do hash out ideas at times but on a whole there good. There are however other LDS near me that lick big time! I love the "why do you use that your going to kill your self!" I respond with tell ya what how about we go for a dive and we do some skills?( always keep practiceing grasshopper) And we can see why I preferr the set up that I have not that there is anything wrong with yours. After people go out the attatude changes everytime. When one of my buddys or I have a new gear set up we will swap sets for a dive just to see what its like and I do find I like some and hate others but still stand by what I dive with. I have a lot of knowledge but much to learn. You never stop learning.

 

[Genesis]

what you're doing makes sense.

What I was reacting to was the idea that to "become" a DM one should buy all new gear from their LDS, at their price (whatever that might be), and be a "billboard" - effectively paying the dive shop to do advertising for them!

That's exactly backwards.

You on the other hand make it work the other way..... I'd take that deal with your shop, but you're too far away from "real water"

 

[Scubatooth]

raviepoo once bubbled...
Force fins do not give you cramps because you don't have to point your toes. They're also small, lightwieght, and easy to travel with. And the bungie cords make them easy to get into and out of quickly.

There may be more powerful or efficient fins out there, but there are other factors involved in my fin choice. And I don't care who calls me names or laughs at me.

I just can't use them in OW pool sessions anymore.

thats another reason why they dont cause cramps, but its also do to that you dont have to use you whole leg to kick with them to through the water faster.

well when i get people who give me a hard time about them i tell them to put there money were there mouth is in a distance and air consumption test, that stops most of them but the hard headed ones just learn the hard way, they learn that very quickly when i put my fins on and walk down to the water and get in and go and then have to wait 5 mins for htem to get in the water and with there fins on.

once in the water i simply just use very little effort and they are struggling to keep up with me (most of hte time now it feels like i dont have any fins on when im wearing my force fins and that i really like)

FWIW