Which regulator should you donate?

[MikeFerrara]

This boils down to a DIR vs. non DIR argument.

No. This arguement goes way back before there was such a thing as DIR.

The DIR camp says treat all OOA emergencies the same. I would think that all OOA emergincies are not the same.

They are all the same. Some one is OOA and to avoid complications you need to get them some fast.

The DIR camp seems to insinuale that the non DIR diver doesn't have sense to test his octopus before a dive or once in the water. They seem to say that they pass off thier primary because they know thier back-up works. Well, I know my back up works also so I'll pass it off thank you.

No. You know it worked as of the last time you checked it. You know your primary is working now because you are using it now.

They also seem to think that we don't know where we clipped our octopus off at so we won't be able to find it. Again, that's just a pop shot at the non DIR diver.

You know where you clipped but is it still there? Will your buddy instinctively know where it is or will he be out of time and just grab the one in your mouth?

I see more dangling alternates on rec divers than clipped up ones.

It was my understanding that the whole 7 foot hose was so the cave divers could pass through small passages that only allow divers to pass single file, during an OOA emergency.

The long hose is to allow the divers to whatever they need to do with enough room to do it

Why push it on warm water reef divers?

No one is pushing it on any one. they're just letting you know how and why some choose to use it in all environments.

It really serves them no purpose.

But it does.

Not eveyone desire to be a cave or "tech" diver.
It would seem that this 7 foot hosed wrapped around the body of someone not trained in the proper techniques is more of a hazard to himself during an OOA emergency.

Being able to quickly, efficiently and comfortably donate and share gas is not (or should not) be specific to cave or tech diving though it seems to be because in rec diving I think it gets botched more often than not.

 

[BCS]

This boils down to a DIR vs. non DIR argument. The DIR camp says treat all OOA emergencies the same. I would think that all OOA emergincies are not the same.
The DIR camp seems to insinuale that the non DIR diver doesn't have sense to test his octopus before a dive or once in the water. They seem to say that they pass off thier primary because they know thier back-up works. Well, I know my back up works also so I'll pass it off thank you. They also seem to think that we don't know where we clipped our octopus off at so we won't be able to find it. Again, that's just a pop shot at the non DIR diver.
It was my understanding that the whole 7 foot hose was so the cave divers could pass through small passages that only allow divers to pass single file, during an OOA emergency. Why push it on warm water reef divers? It really serves them no purpose. Not eveyone desire to be a cave or "tech" diver.
It would seem that this 7 foot hosed wrapped around the body of someone not trained in the proper techniques is more of a hazard to himself during an OOA emergency.

They say to "treat" them the same, they do not say that they "are" all the same. The response in an emergency MUST be automatic, trained for repeatedly, and done instinctively. That is why we "treat" them the same way every time.
20 years of diving experience and being observant of the divers on charters, in classes, and even just diving for fun in the quarries, I would have to say the majority of divers I see that use "octos" are not vigilant in ensuring that they are secure and in good working order. Since (as already pointed out and evidenced by anyone who has experienced and OOA situation) most divers will "grab" the reg right from the donor's mouth anyway...so why not plan for it and expect to give that reg to the OOA diver? It only makes sense to practice what is the most likely scenario to happen anyway. It works...we know it...IF there is a problem w/the backup, well you can just buddy breath...the same thing you would do ANYWAY if you had a problem w/the octo...the difference being that you haven't FURTHER freaked out the OOA diver by giving them a non-working reg, and you-being the donor-should have your crap together a bit more than the OOA diver in this situation...no?
If your backup is secured as a necklace, it is always in the same place, it is used often...not only during the pre-dive check, but also during s-drills and also just to breath off of it to make sure it works...it does not need to be "resecured" so it isn't as much of a hassle to restow as compared to an octo, which if you watch students do this, you can tell they will not check these regs underwater until they need to use it because it's a PITA to restow for many of them. Not to mention, just by virtue of it's requisite function of being easy to deploy from it's holder, the octo is also subject to be easily deployed accidentily and w/o notice of the diver....just so that it can become an entanglement hazard, cause damage to reef, and succumb to being filled with dirt, sand, shells, mud. silt, and/or any other small items that will lie on the bottom.
The method in which we (at GUE) choose to handle OOA's has been arrived at through the experience of many of the world's most experienced divers and it has worked inthe world's harshest diving environments. It is not GUE's exclusively nor does following this protocol in and of itself make one a "DIR" diver.
This one is NOT a "DIR" issue, it's a "common sense" issue.

dive safe!---b.

 

[Web Monkey]

I've got one, and can tell you that it's exactly what you don't want in an emergency.

If your buddy is OOA and you give him your primary, then put the Air-2 in your mouth, not only is it confusing trying to figure out where your inflate/deflate buttons went to (doesn't seem like a big deal, but if for the last few years they were on your left shoulder and now they're in your mouth, it is), it's also extremely difficult to dump all the air from your BC because:

The Air-2 is no longer high enough to let all the air out,
You can't raise it up because you're breathing on it, and
You can't use the pull dump on your left shoulder because you can't pull on the Air-2 because it's in your mouth.

(Actually you can use the pull dump if you yank on the hose while the Air-2 is in your mouth, but it's not obvious and I've never heard an instructor mention it)

While none of these are really awful problems, the last thing you want during an emergency is for everything you learned about controlling your buoyancy during an acent to suddenly become invalid.

I keep my Air-2 just because it's already there, however in an emergency, I always carry a 19 or 30 Cu Ft pony with a first class regulator, so it doesn't really matter which one my buddy grabs.

Terry

Buoyancy isnt difficult to manage at all, you dont have to use the corrugated hose to dump even (and lets face it, you're ascending, dumping should be all you're doing). The regs themselves breathe just fine as well - if it doesnt it needs tuning.

Its not my favourite system by any means but it can work, does work and will get you out of trouble.

 

[rab]

The August 2004 issue of Dive Training Magazine has an article about the various OOA options and some of the pros/cons of each.

-Rob

 

[Rick Inman]

The response in an emergency MUST be automatic, trained for repeatedly, and done instinctively.

Although I am not DIR. but I do use the bungeed backup, with most of the inexperienced divers I see, it doesn't really mater.
I have a Tuesday Night dive group, and many of the divers that come to the dives have less than 50 dives (some spanning over several years). The last time they even THOUGHT about what to do in an OOA situation was in the pool. If something goes funky, it won't mater where the bkup air is, they'll be scrambling, trying to remember what to do.
I was in the pool with a bunch of newly certified divers a few months ago, doing skills, and when I swam up to a lady and signaled OOA, her eyes turned into boiled eggs, and she franticly waved me off and swam away.
OTOH, my regular dive buddy and I do surprise OOA drills on almost every dive, and it actually gets boring after a while. When we dive with a group, I'll pair off with someone else, but if my air ever quit, I'd go to my regular buddy for sure.
Bottom line, without continuous training, it don't mater where your bkup air is.

 

[Jason B]

It is not GUE's exclusively nor does following this protocol in and of itself make one a "DIR" diver.
This one is NOT a "DIR" issue, it's a "common sense" issue.

I was not trying to insinuate that using a 7 foot hose makes one a DIR diver, but was just pointing out that the DIR divers use that configuration. To pass off the primary regulator is the only option a DIR diver has since thier back up is bungeed around thier neck. So of course all DIR divers will answer the same. Anyone trained otherwise will probably answer differently. We can argue this point until the cows come home.
I understand the concept of trying to eliminate choices, but sometimes in life, having a second option is good thing.

 

[BCS]

I've got one, and can tell you that it's exactly what you don't want in an emergency.

If your buddy is OOA and you give him your primary, then put the Air-2 in your mouth, not only is it confusing trying to figure out where your inflate/deflate buttons went to (doesn't seem like a big deal, but if for the last few years they were on your left shoulder and now they're in your mouth, it is), it's also extremely difficult to dump all the air from your BC because:

The Air-2 is no longer high enough to let all the air out,
You can't raise it up because you're breathing on it, and
You can't use the pull dump on your left shoulder because you can't pull on the Air-2 because it's in your mouth.

(Actually you can use the pull dump if you yank on the hose while the Air-2 is in your mouth, but it's not obvious and I've never heard an instructor mention it)

While none of these are really awful problems, the last thing you want during an emergency is for everything you learned about controlling your buoyancy during an acent to suddenly become invalid.

I keep my Air-2 just because it's already there, however in an emergency, I always carry a 19 or 30 Cu Ft pony with a first class regulator, so it doesn't really matter which one my buddy grabs.

Terry

Hi Terry,
Although this may be a wee bit off topic, since you brought up the inflator/alt air source issue, I have a pertinent story that is a bit funny but at the same time illustrates at least one of the pitfalls of using that particular piece of equipment w/a snorkel as well.
I was teaching a rescue class and before we got going into actual rescues, I wanted to evaluate the students basic skills to include an air share. I told them to go down to 20' and swim along a line as a team and something may happen. I gave the signal to one diver that he was to be OOA, he subsequently signaled OOA to his partner that was using an AIR II, the partner donated w/o a problem but then went right to his snorkel at 20'....easy enough mistake to make w/that equipment choice/config., of course I made sure he got his AIR II instead...but it may have been an effective learning tool to let him try the snorkel....this guy obviously didn't get the drift from me just telling him that this equipment choice is problematic and that it can & will happen again w/o an instructor in place and to either lose the AIR II or put the snorkel in a pocket (which he did). We ran into him at the local training mudhole and he still had the snorkel and AIR II in place....seems to be one of the "it can't happen to me" crowd.

dive safe!---b.

 

[roakey]

I understand the concept of trying to eliminate choices, but sometimes in life, having a second option is good thing.

And sometimes, as anyone familliar with Hick's Law can tell you, having choinces is a bad thing. Reactions to emergency situations being one place where it's a bad thing.

Roak

 

[Web Monkey]

I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure that whatever you're trying to breathe on should be connected to an air source at some point

Terry

Hi Terry,
signaled OOA to his partner that was using an AIR II, the partner donated w/o a problem but then went right to his snorkel at 20'....easy enough mistake to make w/that equipment choice/config.,
dive safe!---b.

 

[rab]

...
If your buddy is OOA and you give him your primary, then put the Air-2 in your mouth, not only is it confusing trying to figure out where your inflate/deflate buttons went to ...
Terry

My non-diving wife got me a Zeagle Ranger for Christmas and also the Zeagle Octo+ alternate inflator regulator. Without ever getting it wet, I took it back for store credit and got the standard inflator. I just thought that having both the inflate and deflate/dump buttons right next to each other was going to be confusing -- didn't need to even think about diving it first to decide that such confusion would manifest itself at the worst time.

-Rob