which course is best?

[Thalassamania]

Nice of you all to be passing judgment...

I ALWAYS told every future diver that walked thru the door that they would get better training and be a better buddy if they took the 6 sunday 3hr in the pool 2 classroom weekend open water course and then signed up for ppb then AOW then Rescue courses.
Then go diving to put that theory into practice.

VS. taking the sat sun class pool and ow weekend.

If you see those as the only alternatives I fear that you lack both a knowledge of the history of diving instruction as well as much imagination.

So what is the difference of a student taking 4 classes in a time frame that works for them and gets them diving EVEN IF they don't buy gear.
Than telling them sorry you cant go diving till you spend 16 weeks in a class setting and make say 20 dives to get your card?

It's not in the total dives it's in the things that are not included in the PADI crib sheets. I leave it to you to do the comparison and discover what many of us have known for years.

 

[drew52]

Why does this seem to be about PADI. I think most of the agencies are teaching similar skills and in fact it seems a lot are even more watered down than PADI.

As long as I've taught the minimum (the crib sheets). Last I heard there is nothing stopping us from teaching a little extra or concentrating on things besides the crib sheets.

But what I do know I haven't been diving for 40 years.

 

[Thalassamania]

Why does this seem to be about PADI. I think most of the agencies are teaching similar skills and in fact it seems a lot are even more watered down than PADI.

Because PADI started that trend.

As long as I've taught the minimum (the crib sheets). Last I heard there is nothing stopping us from teaching a little extra or concentrating on things besides the crib sheets.

Read PADI standards more carefully, consider what must be done and how much time is allocated.

But what I do know I haven't been diving for 40 years.

I've ten years on you there, as if that means anything. BUt since you mention it, it must. But then I used to play waterpolo too, and we all know what that does to your brain and your fingers.<G>

But seriously, everyone says that they can add stuff to PADI courses, my question is when? You're facing an uphill battle, not meeting standards (Mastery!) already for the skills that are required and you're going to add more skills? It's like trying to cram not just 10 lbs of poodu into a 5 lbs sack, now it's 11 lbs. You can't get there from here.

 

[liuk3]

In Los Angeles, can you list to me who teaches these longer courses? I've emailed about 15 different people/organizations, and I've only gotten 2 emails back. One individual mentioned that they are in between gigs at the moment. The other individual did email me back about a longer course, but I haven't gotten a whole lot more information.

I'm wondering whether this is just a bad time of year to try to take a course because it is colder and business is slower? It seems like certification programs and dive shops are not getting back to me. I am eager to learn and do want to take the longer course if possible, but if I can't find one locally, then I'll take the ubiquitous 2 weekend one which seems to be offered at every dive shop around me.

 

[Thalassamania]

In Los Angeles, can you list to me who teaches these longer courses? I've emailed about 15 different people/organizations, and I've only gotten 2 emails back. One individual mentioned that they are in between gigs at the moment. The other individual did email me back about a longer course, but I haven't gotten a whole lot more information.

I'm wondering whether this is just a bad time of year to try to take a course because it is colder and business is slower? It seems like certification programs and dive shops are not getting back to me. I am eager to learn and do want to take the longer course if possible, but if I can't find one locally, then I'll take the ubiquitous 2 weekend one which seems to be offered at every dive shop around me.

Contact:
Underwater Unit
Los Angeles County Department of Parks and Recreation

360 W. El Segundo Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90061
(310) 965-8258
Explain what you want, perhaps they can help.

 

[Walter]

Why does this seem to be about PADI. I think most of the agencies are teaching similar skills and in fact it seems a lot are even more watered down than PADI.

Well, it's not always about PADI, but it frequently is because they leave so much out of their standards.

Most agencies do teach similar skills, but at least two of them also teach important skills PADI does not require.

You may be right that other agencies have even less adequate standards, but I haven't read any standards that were. I freely admit I've only studied the standards of three agencies (PADI, NAUI & YMCA). If you have standards from other agencies, I'd love to see them.

 

[deepblueme]

If you see those as the only alternatives I fear that you lack both a knowledge of the history of diving instruction as well as much imagination..

Well I do know the history of diving instruction.
My first Instructor was LA county/YMCA/PADI certified and I have lived freediving/SCUBA for over 40 years now.

Those were the givin alternatives that the owner of the shop I ran wanted us to offer because over the years the customer quit signing up for the 12 week classes we offered.

If you look at the numbers of why people donot learn to dive you will see that the #1 reason givin was "time commitment".
So if you give them what they want they choose to do what ever it is you are offering.
Yes it is sad to see the old ways going away I think all divers should be able to perform to a level that would make me feel safe to send my son on a deco dive with them but the truth is, diving like many other things in this world is a comsumer driven market and as Inst/store personal/profesionals it is our job to do what we can to make them as safe as possiable while giving them what they want.

OR
Do we just exclude those that are not willing to spend the time to learn what skill set "WE" think they should have?

 

[deepblueme]

"Most agencies do teach similar skills, but at least two of them also teach important skills PADI does not require."

Which skills are you refering to?

 

[Thalassamania]

Well I do know the history of diving instruction.
My first Instructor was LA county/YMCA/PADI certified and I have lived freediving/SCUBA for over 40 years now.

Those were the givin alternatives that the owner of the shop I ran wanted us to offer because over the years the customer quit signing up for the 12 week classes we offered.

Not a place I'd be willing to lend my good name to.

If you look at the numbers of why people donot learn to dive you will see that the #1 reason givin was "time commitment".
So if you give them what they want they choose to do what ever it is you are offering.
Yes it is sad to see the old ways going away I think all divers should be able to perform to a level that would make me feel safe to send my son on a deco dive with them but the truth is, diving like many other things in this world is a comsumer driven market and as Inst/store personal/profesionals it is our job to do what we can to make them as safe as possiable while giving them what they want.

Safe is binary, on/off yes/no. It means, "without risk." So please stop misusing the term. That misuse has gotten the diving industry into more trouble than an other single act. If you think that you are making, "them as safe (sic) as possible while giving them what they want." I must disagree. What you are suggesting is an oxymoron. Is not the idea that you&#8217;d let your loved ones dive with a person you trained one on the measures of your own intellectual honesty?

OR
Do we just exclude those that are not willing to spend the time to learn what skill set "WE" think they should have?

That's OK by me, but then I don't make my living by the body count ... er, head count. If you'd rather an institution run by the inmates or a family where the kids are in charge, everything to the lowest common denominator ... god bless ... that's not my way.

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I&#8212;
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Robert Frost

 

[MikeFerrara]

OR
Do we just exclude those that are not willing to spend the time to learn what skill set "WE" think they should have?

That one works for me. In brief, until they have a good handle on the basics...buoyancy control, trim, propulsion, controled ascents and descents (kind of need good buoyancy control for that), I don't want any part of even diving with them in OW.

That BTW, is also my answer to the quation you asked in an earlier post...what does it hurt to spread it our over several courses?...or something to that effect.