which course is best?

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Walter:
There are lots of differences in training standards from one agency to another. Some agencies' standards are much higher than those of others. Which agency you choose is usually the single biggest factor in the quality of your course, however there are exceptionally good instructors in all agencies and one of those exceptionally good instructors can overcome shortcomings in a particular agency's standards. NACD and TDI do not provide entry level classes, although SDI and TDI are two sides of the same coin. Be prepared - carry your c-card in your wallet and a front and back copy in your carry on luggage and you'll never have a problem with proving you're certified no matter what agency you choose.

To find an excellent course will require some research on your part. Going down to the first local shop you find will get you a c-card, but your training will likely be inadequate.

Take your time to research and find the best instructor in your area. Next, take time to complete the course. A good course will last several weeks. Don't rush this, it's something you can spend the rest of your life enjoying.

How do I find an above average course and how will I know I've found it?

Interview potential instructors. Most people never ask any questions beyond price. As the old saying goes, "You get what you pay for." Excellent instructors will usually have a higher priced class for a number of reasons. The instructor is dedicated toward providing you all the time you need to master necessary knowledge and skills. Extra pool time can be expensive. Keep in mind; the instructor is trying to make a living. His time is valuable.

Consider alternatives. While many instructors teach through dive shops, some of the best are independent instructors or affiliated with colleges, universities or YMCA's.

Questions to ask the instructors:

How long have you been teaching? Most instructors improve over time. They learn new techniques and get ideas from other instructors and through experience to improve their classes.

Do you certify all your students? Only instructors who are in a hurry and care nothing about your safety will answer yes. You want an instructor who will require you to be safe and knowledgeable before issuing a c-card. An excellent instructor might tell you that he is willing to keep working with a student until the student either qualifies or gives up.

What skin diving skills will I learn? While there is some disagreement on this point, many professionals believe a solid foundation in skin diving will not only make you a better SCUBA diver, it will make learning SCUBA easier.

Will I learn confidence-building skills? There are some skills which have no direct application to a typical dive, but which do build your confidence as well as your abilities. This, combined with an understanding of the panic cycle, will make you much less likely to panic.

Do you teach the panic cycle? Panic is the most dangerous aspect of diving. Many instructors do not understand panic and believe there is no way to combat it. In actuality, panic is understood. It is though learning the panic cycle and by increasing skill levels that panic is avoided.

Do your students swim with their hands? This will let you know if the instructor pays attention to details. Good divers do not use their hands for swimming.

Do you work on trim? Divers should usually be horizontal in the water. Good instructors will see that students are striving towards good trim. Poor instructors often neglect it.

Do you overweight your students? Many instructors overweight students. It is not a good practice.

What method do you use to correctly weight your students? Any answer that does not involve actually getting in the water means you want to avoid that instructor.

How many people will be in my class? Small classes are better. You'll have more individual attention. Unless the instructor is using certified assistants, more than four students are difficult to watch.

How many certified assistants will you be using? Unless the class is relatively large (more than 4 students) this should not be an issue. An instructor should have a certified Divemaster or Assistant Instructor for every two students over four. There are times when divers working on their Divemaster or Assistant Instructor certifications assist with a class. This is normal and not an issue, but they do not count toward the assistants an instructor should have when working with larger classes.

Will I be learning skills kneeling on the pool bottom or mid-water? This question is not critical, but will let you know if you've found an instructor who has a great deal on the ball. The over whelming majority of instructors (even good instructors) teach skills kneeling on the bottom. Don't eliminate instructors who do. Some instructors have realized your mask will flood while you are swimming, not when you are sitting on the bottom. You need to learn skills in the manner in which you'll be using them.

Do you dive for fun or just when you are teaching? Instructors who've stopped diving for fun are burned out.

Questions to ask yourself:

Is the instructor patient? While talking with your potential instructor, you should be getting a feel for his personality. Patience is an important quality for an instructor. You want to avoid instructors with a drill sergeant demeanor.

Would I be happier learning from a man or a woman? Only you can answer that question, but in general it is not usually a serious consideration. There are excellent instructors and there are poor instructors. Men and women fall into both groups.
Re-quoted and posted again ...
If you carefully read Walters excellent post and points made, and your potential instructor passes all of them, then it's safe to say you will be a good, safe, diver (and have fun) no matter what agency you choose.
( I am certantly glad to see where mine would score on this list :) )

As has been said ... Sticky Worthy
 
awap:
Yes. And they should offer the added benefit of unbiased assistance in selecting gear and sources.

I have yet to hear anyone give an unbiased opinon about dive gear.
 
deepblueme:
I have yet to hear anyone give an unbiased opinon about dive gear.
Unbiased in terms of not being motivated by financial interests perhaps?
 
Ok this is getting to me.

All the experienced/hard core divers think that the cert agencys do to little to teach a new diver what they need to know to be a "good" diver/buddy. Right?

Well what it comes down to is that the avarge joe/jane future diver that is looking to learn to dive HAS NO CLUE what it takes to be a good diver/buddy.

So they come into/call XYZ LDS thinking "gee I'd like to learn to dive for that up and comming vacation" and are told about the classes that are offered.
OW wow that is what I need to go diving and I can do it in 2 weekends.
AOW why do I need that I won't ever dive again/or go that deep.
Rescue I won't be diving with the Fire Dept. looking for bodys.
(By the way these are things that I have heard)
Try telling that person it will take about 2 months to get a card.

So the future diver is told about a 2 weekend class and signs up, now hopefully the Inst. can get it across during training how important these classes are to make them a well rounded buddy and set them on the path for future diving.

The shop I ran went from a 12 week class back in the day to a 6 week class then we started offering a weekend class.
Guess which class was always full? Your right the 2 day then go do your open water.
We also found that out of 10 students 6 took AOW/PPB and 4 took Rescue.

I guess what I am saying is that the cert agenceys/LDS are doing is giving the people what they want in bite size chunks that time and money will allow. Is it the best way?
Who knows but I do know that not everyone wants to be a cave/wreck/deco diver ALOT of people only want to go look at the pretty fish and have someone there to find them for them, then show them back to the boat. I know I did it 6 days a week in the VI.

And yea I am PADI brain washed and after working with students for 20 years and watching what they and many "experienced" divers form all agencys did (how about 250ft on a 80cu al solo), I will still say it is up to the Inst to teach safe diving and the student do build on those skills.

And what isn't finanicaly driven?
 
deepblueme:
I guess what I am saying is that the cert agenceys/LDS are doing is giving the people what they want in bite size chunks that time and money will allow. Is it the best way?

Yes, they are giving people what they want, but that's not what the thread is about. The original question was "which course is best?" Some of us are attempting to steer him in a direction to find the best course. That's what he's asking. You are getting defensive and attempting to address a totally different issue.

BTW, an AOW course and a rescue course combined do not make up for the short comings of a one or two weekend OW course, the missing skills are never taught in any of those classes. You want to teach a short and, in my opinion, inadequate class, you have every right to do so. I'll support your right to do so. OTOH, I strongly disagree with misleading consumers about it. It's far from adequate and the skills/concepts needed to compensate are never taught in future classes. "It's the instructor, not the agency," is one of the most common and biggest lies in diving today. Teach a crap course if you want, but don't lie to your potential students about it.
 
deepblueme:
Ok this is getting to me.

All the experienced/hard core divers think that the cert agencys do to little to teach a new diver what they need to know to be a "good" diver/buddy. Right?

Well what it comes down to is that the avarge joe/jane future diver that is looking to learn to dive HAS NO CLUE what it takes to be a good diver/buddy.

So they come into/call XYZ LDS thinking "gee I'd like to learn to dive for that up and comming vacation" and are told about the classes that are offered.
OW wow that is what I need to go diving and I can do it in 2 weekends.
AOW why do I need that I won't ever dive again/or go that deep.
Rescue I won't be diving with the Fire Dept. looking for bodys.
(By the way these are things that I have heard)
Try telling that person it will take about 2 months to get a card.

So the future diver is told about a 2 weekend class and signs up, now hopefully the Inst. can get it across during training how important these classes are to make them a well rounded buddy and set them on the path for future diving.

The shop I ran went from a 12 week class back in the day to a 6 week class then we started offering a weekend class.
Guess which class was always full? Your right the 2 day then go do your open water.
We also found that out of 10 students 6 took AOW/PPB and 4 took Rescue.

I guess what I am saying is that the cert agenceys/LDS are doing is giving the people what they want in bite size chunks that time and money will allow. Is it the best way?
Who knows but I do know that not everyone wants to be a cave/wreck/deco diver ALOT of people only want to go look at the pretty fish and have someone there to find them for them, then show them back to the boat. I know I did it 6 days a week in the VI.

And yea I am PADI brain washed and after working with students for 20 years and watching what they and many "experienced" divers form all agencys did (how about 250ft on a 80cu al solo), I will still say it is up to the Inst to teach safe diving and the student do build on those skills.

And what isn't finanicaly driven?
Let’s start with the last question first … if there’s nothing in your life that is not financially drive I truly feel sorry for you. If you spent your life always trying to make a buck off everything, that must be very hard.

Your right, “… avarge joe/jane future diver that is looking to learn to dive HAS NO CLUE what it takes to be a good diver/buddy.” And it does not sound like you, or the agencies have any interest in telling the average joe/jane future diver the truth either, you’d rather just take their money, keep them dependent on you and sell them the next and the next “bite size chunks,” after all, what isn’t financially driven?
You seem to recognize that it takes four PADI classes to make someone a “diver,” and when you add up those courses they come out to being about the minimum that a real course should be, but I guess you’d rather lead your students on, and fleece them in four strokes that tell them the truth in the first place. The problem, frankly, is people who are more interested in their customers’ Gold Card than they are in their students’ welfare.
 
Walter:
BTW, an AOW course and a rescue course combined do not make up for the short comings of a one or two weekend OW course, the missing skills are never taught in any of those classes. You want to teach a short and, in my opinion, inadequate class, you have every right to do so. I'll support your right to do so. OTOH, I strongly disagree with misleading consumers about it. It's far from adequate and the skills/concepts needed to compensate are never taught in future classes. "It's the instructor, not the agency," is one of the most common and biggest lies in diving today. Teach a crap course if you want, but don't lie to your potential students about it.
If you roll into one program the time and dives spent on OW, AOW, PPD and Rescue you could come up with a half-way decent course, the problem (of course) is that if you follow the PADI syllabus step wise for those four courses there are, as you noted, still things missing. “It’s the Instructor not the Agency” is a saying promulgated by the inadequate to cover their shortcomings, but you knew that … right? You never hear anyone from LA County spouting it now, do you?

BTW: I am NOT an LA County Instructor.
 
Nice of you all to be passing judgment...

I ALWAYS told every future diver that walked thru the door that they would get better training and be a better buddy if they took the 6 sunday 3hr in the pool 2 classroom weekend open water course and then signed up for ppb then AOW then Rescue courses.
Then go diving to put that theory into practice.

VS. taking the sat sun class pool and ow weekend.

So what is the difference of a student taking 4 classes in a time frame that works for them and gets them diving EVEN IF they don't buy gear.
Than telling them sorry you cant go diving till you spend 16 weeks in a class setting and make say 20 dives to get your card?
 

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