saltydawg
Guest
my number one pet peeve...personal responsibility, and especially those who lack it.
Where the buck stops...
- Thread starter Twiddles
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Humm... I'm gonna' play a bit of crummugeion here...
I hear a lot of good intentioned "I'd do this" and "I'd do that" going on... and, in fairness... I believe you all... I honestly believe that is your intent and belief in the moment... now... let's flip the perspective a little bit...
You and I are insta-buddied on a dive... do you REALLY want to put blind faith in the believe that I WILL come to your rescue no matter what? Are you willing to trust so much that you'd relax... for a second... your personal responsiblity for your own life?
I don't look at the question so much as a challenge of "are you diver enough to go rescue somebody"... that's an easy hypothetical... only the very very honest would say... "Probably"... I see the question of "how do you KNOW your buddy is going to come to your rescue" as being more to the point.
No one is ever *required* to come to somebody's assistance... we'd all like to think we would... and we would... but how many divers out there (somebody probably has these numbers) has actually DONE rescue diver??? How many have gone through CPR & First Aid? (I've done the latter... haven't done rescue yet... )
Yep... I'm willing to believe that EVERYBODY on this thread has the full intention of coming to my rescue if I get in deep goo... but...
I don't care how big of a buddy group ya' got... you and you alone are responsible for your safety... and that grey stuff between your ears is the principle tool ya' have for ensuring it... your buddy is, at best, an emergency bail out option that *might* work... It's kinda' like that old saw in poker, "Trust everybody... but cut the cards."
I hear a lot of good intentioned "I'd do this" and "I'd do that" going on... and, in fairness... I believe you all... I honestly believe that is your intent and belief in the moment... now... let's flip the perspective a little bit...
You and I are insta-buddied on a dive... do you REALLY want to put blind faith in the believe that I WILL come to your rescue no matter what? Are you willing to trust so much that you'd relax... for a second... your personal responsiblity for your own life?
I don't look at the question so much as a challenge of "are you diver enough to go rescue somebody"... that's an easy hypothetical... only the very very honest would say... "Probably"... I see the question of "how do you KNOW your buddy is going to come to your rescue" as being more to the point.
No one is ever *required* to come to somebody's assistance... we'd all like to think we would... and we would... but how many divers out there (somebody probably has these numbers) has actually DONE rescue diver??? How many have gone through CPR & First Aid? (I've done the latter... haven't done rescue yet... )
Yep... I'm willing to believe that EVERYBODY on this thread has the full intention of coming to my rescue if I get in deep goo... but...
I don't care how big of a buddy group ya' got... you and you alone are responsible for your safety... and that grey stuff between your ears is the principle tool ya' have for ensuring it... your buddy is, at best, an emergency bail out option that *might* work... It's kinda' like that old saw in poker, "Trust everybody... but cut the cards."
I second that motion, my number one too.saltydawg:
OP
Twiddles
Contributor
If we stick to the specifics of the article we have a much clearer picture and possibly a much more concise reason for some concern. If you believe as I do that first reactions/statements are the actions/statements usually followed in a stress situation (if you dont, it doesnt really change anything) then Marty made it clear that he would at the very least hesitate before giving his alternate air source to the other diver for any number of pseudo valid reasons. His follow up responses were added after he was berated by fellow divers for his statement. Commending somebody for their honesty about abandoning somebody because he should be looking out for himself is certainly not something I would expect from the editor of a dive training magazine. No matter how carefully worded the commendation was made.
Point is, regardless of how the other diver got into the situation he was in, we all carry (as far as I know anyway) some form of alternative air supply for our buddy or an OOA diver. The possibly panicked and possibly not totally calm diver did as he was trained; he went to the nearest source of air available, signaled as he was taught and recieved air from another diver. Had the nearest source of air been Marty we could be looking at a dead diver, not just because he didnt follow protocol and all his safety steps, but because Marty decided to change the rules.
I dont know of any training recieved that indicates that you should evaluate whether or not to give air to a diver who has approached and signaled out of air. Convoluting the issue with all kinds of what ifs and protect yourself firsts and evaluate and then decide bs only adds hesitation and possible undue harm to an otherwise trained reaction. You are taught to aid, if you refuse that aid when ASKED, your a problem period.
Point is, regardless of how the other diver got into the situation he was in, we all carry (as far as I know anyway) some form of alternative air supply for our buddy or an OOA diver. The possibly panicked and possibly not totally calm diver did as he was trained; he went to the nearest source of air available, signaled as he was taught and recieved air from another diver. Had the nearest source of air been Marty we could be looking at a dead diver, not just because he didnt follow protocol and all his safety steps, but because Marty decided to change the rules.
I dont know of any training recieved that indicates that you should evaluate whether or not to give air to a diver who has approached and signaled out of air. Convoluting the issue with all kinds of what ifs and protect yourself firsts and evaluate and then decide bs only adds hesitation and possible undue harm to an otherwise trained reaction. You are taught to aid, if you refuse that aid when ASKED, your a problem period.
Honestly, that's because you haven't taken Rescue. Before Rescue, I was probably like you. I know people I've talked to have been rather aghast at first when I've told them that there are times when I'd have to let someone go, even knowing I was the only possible chance they'd make it. Rescue makes you a better diver, to be sure, much more able to assist a diver in need and much less likely to *become* that diver in need, but at the same time, it teaches you that sometimes you have to make hard decisions because if you honestly believe it's one death or two, it should not be two. We were also taught an entire chapter on what comes after an accident, and what to expect even from divers you've saved. (It may as easily be hate as love, which can really do one on you.)Twiddles:
The more advanced you get in your education (in general), the more you realize that life isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sometimes you have to make hard choices, because nobody can help *everyone* (although those who try have my utmost admiration and respect).Twiddles:
When you start your diving education, it begins with "help everyone", but as you progress, the comforting black and white becomes muddled. It turns out, what you thought was clear cut only appeared that way because you didn't look closely enough. The more you learn, the more you realize that there are times when you *can't* help someone. Then, if you're a very caring person, you devote your time and effort into being as prepared and capable as possible in order to minimize those cases where you would be unable to help, but at the same time, you realize that there are times when it goes beyond risking your life and becomes throwing your life away.
For example, if I were diving nitrox and a diver on air becomes narced and starts swimming down, I'll likely try to intercept him before I hit 1.4ata PPO2. I'll probably give chase to 1.6ata. I might even head toward 2.0ata, if there were a hard bottom and I thought he'd stop. But if we're in deep water and he's plummeting, if I were to chase him down well past 2.0ata PPO2, swimming hard to catch up, I am quite certain I would oxtox and die. There'd be no point to try to assist, as the best case would be he makes it and I die, and the most likely case is we both die.
Life stinks sometimes, and Rescue is very sobering for pointing that out, clear as day, and forcing you to think about things and say things that, for me at least, made me think long and hard about how far I could go to try to save someone and what I know I'll certainly go through if I ever reach that limit. It also cost me a good amount of sleep thinking about what the people around me would feel.
Frankly, I would probably be at least a bit happier if I, like you, were still naive, but if someday I *can* save someone, the reflections and pondering will have been an insignificant price to pay.
OP
Twiddles
Contributor
Naive?(whatever), but as I said stop posting wild hypotheticals and stick to the confines of the article. I can dream up a thousand reasons why not to aid somebody and another thousand reason why you should in a thousand other diffrent hypotheticals. Were talking about the article and the specific instance referenced in the article. Were not talking about how imaginative your rescue diver ego can make you.
...that the decision to help at a given time can be the same for everyone, everytime, under all circumstances. IMO, alot of your decision to assist will be based on your personality, your training, your experience(s) & your personal philosophy towards such instances ( assuming you've developed one ).
In the event described, the donor had precious little time to make his decision. He may not of thought about it at all - rather, he may have defaulted to his trained response. I have read more than one incident report where, under similar circumstances, the story did not end nearly as well. Blind panic can overwhelm in an instant; donated regs. recieved can be spat out, & the donor's primary reg. ripped from their mouth, instigating a veritable fight-for- survival. There are no testamonials to consider from those who proferred an alternate in similar situations, but who, for whatever the circumstances, did not survive the situation. Would they, on sober second thought, have acted the same way again had they the chance? There are tales recounted by those whose benevolence nearly cost them their life, & their stories make for sobering reading. I have a dozen or so incident reports involving injury or death that I review with my entry-level students; at the conclusion of the session, I am faced with a sea of sober faces.
I encourage all to read these incident reports. They, more than anything save personal experience, bring home the reality of what can happen when things go wrong in the land of enjoyment-by-life-support-equipment.
Like TS&M, I'm quite sure of my response. I'm a professional rescuer, & despite our mantra of "rescuer safety first", I would not be able to conciously override my initial instinct to help. Fortuneately, I have an arsenal of techniques & years of experience to cope with whatever may come down the pipe.
I hope it will always be enough.
Regards,
DSD
In the event described, the donor had precious little time to make his decision. He may not of thought about it at all - rather, he may have defaulted to his trained response. I have read more than one incident report where, under similar circumstances, the story did not end nearly as well. Blind panic can overwhelm in an instant; donated regs. recieved can be spat out, & the donor's primary reg. ripped from their mouth, instigating a veritable fight-for- survival. There are no testamonials to consider from those who proferred an alternate in similar situations, but who, for whatever the circumstances, did not survive the situation. Would they, on sober second thought, have acted the same way again had they the chance? There are tales recounted by those whose benevolence nearly cost them their life, & their stories make for sobering reading. I have a dozen or so incident reports involving injury or death that I review with my entry-level students; at the conclusion of the session, I am faced with a sea of sober faces.
I encourage all to read these incident reports. They, more than anything save personal experience, bring home the reality of what can happen when things go wrong in the land of enjoyment-by-life-support-equipment.
Like TS&M, I'm quite sure of my response. I'm a professional rescuer, & despite our mantra of "rescuer safety first", I would not be able to conciously override my initial instinct to help. Fortuneately, I have an arsenal of techniques & years of experience to cope with whatever may come down the pipe.
I hope it will always be enough.
Regards,
DSD
Bob,NWGratefulDiver:
this is too spooky. After I read the article, I very nearly posted what you have posted here vitually word for word. A phone call interupted me though and I didn't make the post.
It was not an insult. You have neither the experience nor the dive education to have come to an understanding that there are times when a diver can refuse to help and be justified in doing so. It's a rather cynical view of things, and not having considered that decision means you're still innocent of having made it. With a few exceptions (people like DSD and TSandM, for example, with whom I'll never compare in some ways), most people would likely reach a limit as to how much risk of their life they'd take to try to save someone.Twiddles:
If you want to reference only the actual situtation in the article (a diver in a group, apparently nowhere near panic(?), who comes to you for air), sure, I'll donate an alternate (while being prepared to clobber the guy if he tries to bolt). Still, isn't that kinda missing the entire *point* of the article, which is to think about what you'd do, both by considering the hypothetical diver who won't/can't help you as well as considering whether *you* would/could help were you approached.Twiddles:
I've tried to reply with what insight I found through Rescue. It forced me to think about those hypothetical situations from both sides, and it certainly broadened my imagination. I'd hoped that my being open about one easily understood reason someone *could* be forced to choose between themselves and a rescue attempt would provide context by which you could more easily see that the black and white of always trying to help everyone is not nearly so certain the more you learn.Twiddles:
As I've said (probably belaboring the point), I openly admire educated, experienced people who can put a diver in peril before their own safety in every situation. They know the risks, and they choose to put the safety of others before their own safety, but I admire them so much because they are the few. It's easy to say "I'd always help, and to not help is murder!" if you're unspoiled by knowledge and experience. To know full well the mortal peril you may face and still be able to say, "I'd always help, even though I may not require that of others." is certainly another concept, altogether.
Specifically Mr. Snyderman said,".....I would be reluctant to put myself at risk" Doesn't mean he absolutely wouldn't put himself at risk. As has been noted in this thread several times, you don't know what you would do in an actual situation until you are in it. When its over, then you know what you would do.Twiddles:
As the scenario was described to him over lunch, there was something that struck a nerve in him. He doesn't say specifically why the comment bothered him, just that it did bother him. As DeepSeaDan noted each persons experiences in life, their philosophy on life etc, etc all comes into play, and it does so in a flash. Had the situation actually involved Mr. Snyderman, he may well have donated a regulator without hesitation and assisted the OOA diver to the surface. Given the opprotunity to reflect in the situation without having been in it, he had some doubts about the overall risk involved. Actually he seemed to doubt the validity of the statemnt to the effect that diving with a group automatically gives you asafe way out of an OOA situation. He is merely pointing out the fact that, that may not be the case in reality.
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