Where the buck stops...

[mjatkins]

Something I feel worth noting in regards to this article, is that although the author "Marty" was discussing a diver on a trip who got himself in a situation by not checking his air before descending, his points seemed to be applied to any diver regardless of panic or bone headedness. As I recall, what he said was (paraphrased) that before assisting any diver in an emergency situation, he would need to be sure of the calmness of the other diver, and be aware of what emergency actions the other diver would take. It sounded as if he was saying, panic or not, if we haven't discussed our out of air procedure together, you’re on your own because I don't know what you will do.

I am all for not creating a second victim (especially if it's me), but I think that most folks would take the approach of not helping if something convinces them not to, rather that not helping unless something convinces them that they should.

In fairness to "Marty", he also points out that the article is one thing, but in the real situation it's still up for grabs as to how he would react. He won't know for sure until he's done it.

One last point, I can't think of anything that would turn a stressed, out of air diver into a panicking danger faster or more thoroughly than refusing him air when he needed it.

 

[saltydawg]

I served as a U.S. Marine, have now been a full time cop for quite a few years, am also a volunteer firefighter in an active area, and a medic first responder, arson investigator......I believe very strongly in service to others and have been places and done things that many others would not do..I Have been to house fires on Christmas Eve, where there were four children caught in the back bedroom of a trailer when the Christmas tree caught on fire in the front living room.....the parents were not home... a neighbor noticed the fire and called 911..I was the first on the screen..the front half of the trailer was fully involved.....there was no way to get even near the 10-15 feet of the front door with out getting burnt....I went to find a back door there was none....I went to the back wall and was trying to cut into it and tear it apart with my tire tool out of my patrol unit...(The fire dept. hand not arrived yet It was a pea soup foggy night).... I could hear the kids inside at first until the heat and smoke overcame them...about two scratches on the side......and the fire dept then arrived and one of the Capts. pulled me away and turned me over to the para medics, most of my hair was singed off my head, and my polyester uniform was starting to melt....I was OK and alive the children didn't make it.......Gives me a whole new outlook on every Christmas...This is just one case out of several I could share....
The first thing that is taught in any police /fire /rescue training is to be part of the solution and not become a part of the problem....one thing that trips my switch is the Monday morning quarterbacks that can sit in the comfort of an office and judge another's actions or inactions to any given situation with out being in that exact one...many cases are very similar but not exact....each person has their own perspective as to how far they can go with any situation before they will call it quits... that is their call....when a person straps a car to their butt, puts a gun on their hip or a tank on their back each one accepts a measure of personal responsibility to themselves and others around them but foremost they have to take personal responsability...if a situation goes south...don't look around and point fingers on others.......

 

[J.R.]

....each person has their own perspective as to how far they can go with any situation before they will call it quits... that is their call....

Yup... and the reality of emergency situations is that NOBODY can tell exactly what they will do until the situation arises. I've seen people rise above themselves in a moment of need (... later to ask the question, "What the heck was I THINKING")... and I've seen otherwise strong people fall apart. All depends on the day and the situation.

The best you can do is to TRAIN for the eventuality so that you have the tools at hand in the event you can or choose to act. But unless you're the one "in the moment" there is absolutely no sure course of action.

 

[Guba]

I'm with Steve on this one. I'm not an expert diver, but I will do EVERYTHING WITHIN MY TRAINING AND ABILITY to perform a rescue. That's part of my faith and philosophical training.
That said, part of my training is in evaluating the scene and taking appropriate and timely action. Will I throw my life away (descending to 250 feet on air, using an Al 80 tank, to retrieve an unconscious diver)? Nope. I owe it to my family not to do anything foolish, and that's foolish. Will I offer an OOA diver a reg? Under most conditions, probably.
As I said, I'm not the most experienced diver. However, I've had 27 years as a certified firefighter and rescue technician. I've also had a couple decades as a professional lifeguard and lifeguard trainer, and I'm well versed in what makes up an emergency situation. Weighing risks has to be thought out long in advance, and that's why posts/articles like this one are well worth reading and considering long before an emergency arises.

 

[SteveAD]

Just to clarify my position, my default is that I will render any and all aid possible. I will, however, evaluate the situation first, and if it's too hairy, I would back out to keep from becoming a second victim.

 

[jbd]

Weighing risks has to be thought out long in advance, and that's why posts/articles like this one are well worth reading and considering long before an emergency arises.

I agree completely with this. Well said.

 

[Teamcasa]

Salty,
Your scenario is horrific, sad and frightening however, if you would have had the tools and training to rip a hole in the back of the trailer, those kids may have survived. While no one expects a patrol officer to have a K12 saw in their trunk, we SCUBA divers do have the tools to save the life of an OOA diver. Its strapped to your back.

Having been suddenly OOA, I understand the first impulse is to get to the surface. Realizing a buddy is closer, I give the sign and expect assistance. If no effort is made to help, I believe that my own survival instincts would force me to the surface. The first few seconds are critical. I doubt any diver would behave differently.

Dave

 

[saltydawg]

I'm with Steve on this one. I'm not an expert diver, but I will do EVERYTHING WITHIN MY TRAINING AND ABILITY to perform a rescue. That's part of my faith and philosophical training.
That said, part of my training is in evaluating the scene and taking appropriate and timely action. Will I throw my life away (descending to 250 feet on air, using an Al 80 tank, to retrieve an unconscious diver)? Nope. I owe it to my family not to do anything foolish, and that's foolish. Will I offer an OOA diver a reg? Under most conditions, probably.
As I said, I'm not the most experienced diver. However, I've had 27 years as a certified firefighter and rescue technician. I've also had a couple decades as a professional lifeguard and lifeguard trainer, and I'm well versed in what makes up an emergency situation. Weighing risks has to be thought out long in advance, and that's why posts/articles like this one are well worth reading and considering long before an emergency arises.

exactly.....one of the best methods of preperation is after the initial training is to do mental drills..constantly asking one's self what if this happens...what would I do... constantly......while patroling going through scenarios is one of the best tools for mental preperation.....mostly there is not alot of time to think when an emergancy happens about all the possabilities...better to have thought them out the best one can...and to know ones limits......
now as a side note: If I remember my younger days as a life gaurd if a person is in a panic the method was to go under them and come up behind to gain the control, arm over chest, and hip to their small of back to tow...am I remembering that correctly?

 

[ClayJar]

I would go out of my way to help a diver in need, but at the same time, if the choice came down to a diver in panic or myself, I know I'll second guess myself for probably the rest of my life, and I might not sleep well ever again, but I have a duty to save myself for my family and loved ones.

The most powerful lesson I and my buddies (who are themselves family and loved ones) took from Rescue training was that sometimes you simply have to make decisions that no person should ever have to make, but in the end, if the choice is two dead divers or one dead diver and a permanent emotional scar, the right choice (and certainly the harder, if you have any humanity) is the latter.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Now that I have read the article, a couple of observations ...

First observation ... and perhaps significant to THIS discussion ... there was no mention of panic in the reaction of the diver involved in the incident. Indeed, it appeared that the diver acted calmly and did what he was trained to do in an OOA situation (albeit, he DIDN'T do what he was trained to do to avoid one in the first place).

Second observation ... it appears to me that the point of Mr. Snyderman's article isn't to discourage people from helping an OOA diver, it's to emphasize that as divers we're responsible for our own safety, and that we shouldn't just disregard basic safety protocols on the assumption that someone will be there to bail us out if we get into trouble ... because they might not be, or they might not respond as we expect them to.

Significant to note his final paragraphs ...

So what would I have really done in that situation? I can't say that I know.

If I saw a diver in distress and felt that I could help, I'd do so. I just hope I never am faced with an emergency that is outside of my ability and training as a first responder. But there are two distinct lessons that stand out to me. One, you can never really know how anyone else, especially strangers, will react in an emergency situation.

Two, you can't 100 percent count on the other person to respond in the way you might need them to. This is why it's important to do everything within your power to never put yourself in a situation where your life depends on the other guy. All of us should do everything we can to avoid putting ourselves in dangerous, yet totally preventable, situations in which we are completely dependent upon someone else's actions.

In diving we all need to do everything we can, every time we dive, to be responsible for ourselves. Even when we dive with a buddy. Diving should be and is a very safe sport. Let's all do what we can to keep it that way.

THIS, is really the point of the article ... it has less to do with the specific incident than it does with the overall mentality of preparing properly, observing basic safety protocols, and taking responsibility for your own safety ... and in this I agree with him completely.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)