I guess that's very subjective. I think that anyone moving beyond cavern/intro should absolutely be good at valve drills. Mastery isn't necessary, that takes time. But I believe they should be able to quickly isolate/problem solve after cavern/intro. WIth experience, speed and mastery should come. Unfortunately, there are alot of people that have passed full cave that would have alot of difficulty if they actually had to do a real shutdown. I personally believe moderate proficiency is required to be safe moving through the courses.
Where do you teach valve shutdowns?
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I guess that's very subjective. I think that anyone moving beyond cavern/intro should absolutely be good at valve drills. Mastery isn't necessary, that takes time. But I believe they should be able to quickly isolate/problem solve after cavern/intro. WIth experience, speed and mastery should come. Unfortunately, there are alot of people that have passed full cave that would have alot of difficulty if they actually had to do a real shutdown. I personally believe moderate proficiency is required to be safe moving through the courses.
My instructor wanted me to be familiar with it before I started cave training, and we practiced it many times throughout training (in backmount).
I had familiarity with the concept from recreational sidemount class, so it wasn't too difficult to transition. I needed to perform the drill several more times for another instructor to sign off on my AN/DP completion.
I had familiarity with the concept from recreational sidemount class, so it wasn't too difficult to transition. I needed to perform the drill several more times for another instructor to sign off on my AN/DP completion.
OP
CAPTAIN SINBAD
Contributor
Yes I have seen some of this myself. I I was unsure how common it was for a person to have full cave and not be able to do a valve drill. My own experience is that developing an understanding of it is one thing and being able to do in repeatedly while maintaining buoyancy and trim are totally different. From what I have been able to notice, mainstream cave courses do not put as much practice dives between the time you are shown those skills (Cavern / Intro to tech) and the time you will be evaluated on them. This probably becomes the reason why you can graduate with full cave without being proficient at something like that? Just wondering.
Jack Hammer
Contributor
Not exactly.
Demonstration of a drill is required as one progresses. The term "mastery" is subjective. I took Fundies years before any cave training. We did quite a bit more valve drills in Fundies than all my cave classes combined. I honestly cant say if my cave training would have had more if I'd never done them before. Regardless, I feel valve drills are under emphasized in many cave classes.
Panther1880
Registered
My experience is that the valve drill and s drill are performed during GUE Fundies by 1 team member. During GUE cave 1 you solve your failures as a team. So you bring your experience with manipulating your valves and apply them in this new setting. I'd say this was practiced almost every dive. During our training emphasis was placed on maintaining the stable platform and keeping reference and once the problem is handled how you choose to exit. I assume these procures are performed once more during cave 2. I can't say what the outcome would be if you can't manipulate your valves effectively throughout these trainings. My guess is that if a trainee continues to fail at this he or she will fail the course.
Keep in mind that you will check your valves on numerous occasions, if you hit the ceiling during a restriction, if you don't trust the SPG readout so you'll reach for your valves besides just during exercise and failures. I was happy I could manipulate them effectively so I could focus on learning the new stuff.
So if you ask me if you should practice your valve manipulation more because it's a bit rusty and it takes effort and more important it takes a lot of mental capacity my answer would be YES.
Keep in mind that you will check your valves on numerous occasions, if you hit the ceiling during a restriction, if you don't trust the SPG readout so you'll reach for your valves besides just during exercise and failures. I was happy I could manipulate them effectively so I could focus on learning the new stuff.
So if you ask me if you should practice your valve manipulation more because it's a bit rusty and it takes effort and more important it takes a lot of mental capacity my answer would be YES.
Kay Dee
Contributor
Mastery, as someone else implied, maybe not; proficiency, certainly (or at least should be).
arthurng311
Registered
My personal experience
Valve drill means very different things for different instructors, unless there is a standard. I first learnt valve drills from a tdi instructor which basically told us that we had to be able to manipulate the valves which were on our back, i did a combined ITT and DP course back then not knowing better, and he put valve failures into the DP course and basically told us to listen for where the leak it and shut the valve, afterwards signal to team member.
Unsatisfied with my course, i went to GUE for fundies training with Gidedon Liew, i was taught the GUE valve drill, and was explained to us that this was a mean to be familiar with manipulating the valves while keeping all other things in check, positioning/situational awareness etc. It was stressed that this was not a means to deal with valve failure, and that is a topic for tech 1. Soon i was back to do tech 1 with gideon again, which required a tech pass, the tech pass for me required mastery of the valve drill, meaning the ability to do valve drills consistently while maintaining your positioning even if it means back kicking against a current. This was clearly explained to me during my fundies and my tech pass upgrade. In tech 1, we were assumed to have complete mastery of the subject and would apply the knowledge to tackle valve failure problems, often in current and blue water, and sometimes working with a primary reel.
Valve drill means very different things for different instructors, unless there is a standard. I first learnt valve drills from a tdi instructor which basically told us that we had to be able to manipulate the valves which were on our back, i did a combined ITT and DP course back then not knowing better, and he put valve failures into the DP course and basically told us to listen for where the leak it and shut the valve, afterwards signal to team member.
Unsatisfied with my course, i went to GUE for fundies training with Gidedon Liew, i was taught the GUE valve drill, and was explained to us that this was a mean to be familiar with manipulating the valves while keeping all other things in check, positioning/situational awareness etc. It was stressed that this was not a means to deal with valve failure, and that is a topic for tech 1. Soon i was back to do tech 1 with gideon again, which required a tech pass, the tech pass for me required mastery of the valve drill, meaning the ability to do valve drills consistently while maintaining your positioning even if it means back kicking against a current. This was clearly explained to me during my fundies and my tech pass upgrade. In tech 1, we were assumed to have complete mastery of the subject and would apply the knowledge to tackle valve failure problems, often in current and blue water, and sometimes working with a primary reel.
For my (backmount) TDI course in Mexico the instructor required us to do valve drills and s drills, in trim, on a line in 10’ of open water without change in buoyancy before going into the overhead. We did a couple of coaching days to tighten that stuff up prior to starting cavern/intro. Throughout the course and later on during full cave we did many valve drills usually during the exit at the secondary tie off in the cavern area. In my opinion the drill is mostly about maintaining buoyancy, trim, position while task loaded and reinforcing your knowledge/muscle memory of what’s connected to what valve and which direction will open or close each valve. However, the real meat of both courses is team problem solving. Almost every dive was punctuated with multiple failures that require different actions between my buddy and I to exit safely.
When I look at TDI course descriptions, I can see "Emergency procedures" listed as a topic both in Cavern (overhead path) and in Deco procedures (mixed gas path). So, technically the skills are included in the curriculum. How much and how well they are taught is another thing. IANTD, on the other hand, tells us: "Introductory Cave Diver: Must provide proof of a minimum of 30 logged dives". Tells a lot. I have met wonderfull and demanding IANTD instructors though. You just need to find the good ones, which is hard when you do not know what you do not know.
During my dive training I have met wonderfull instructors (both open water and cave) that loved what they do and focused on skill and were proficient teachers, and I have had the joy to practice skills with fellow divers from our diving club, but then again I have encountered those, who focus on efficient certification and should probably not be teaching technical diving. On the inferior courses there was not much time for drills.
As far as I know, GUE is the only certification agency that actually enforces anything: monitors the skill of the instructors, demands a certain amount of measurable skill (and dives per year). It's the only agency whose divers always do a proper pre dive check, stay in contact during the dive, and do various drills.
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I was trained in sidemount. Hence, valve drills were a non-issue, but we had to focus on regular regulator switches and balancing the cylinder pressures (to guarantee thirds). This was a natural part of every single dive.
We all know that we do not learn to shut down valves because it is a prerequisite for some course, but because our lifes may very well depend on that skill. Good instructors empasize this and require proficiency in valve drills no matter which certification system they follow.
An example: I know two instructors from the same agency. One has actually failed students who cannot reach their valves, while the other one has been more relaxed about procedures. Prerequisites in course descriptions are nothing but ink on paper unless the agency actually monitors what the instructors do. Maximizing profit is a natural thing to do if there is no process of re-qualification or inspection.
I have taken diving courses from seven different agencies, and believe me, I've seen a lot of variation. I would not dare to set agencies in any particular order, with the exception of GUE and derivatives, and professional diving of course.
I do not know what recent improvements other agencies have done, but I'm sure they will.
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