When should you flunk a student

[northcoast_diver]

Gary, your comment about being consistant is so true. I stand corrected. Now that I think about it, that hold true to just about anything.

Actually last night I ran into one of the kids from my class that was having a difficult time. As it turned out, she did not pass the class with everyone else. She wound up being "tutored" by the instructor one on one until she mastered the required skills. Glad to see my club doesn't rubber stamp certifications. I have much more respect for the intructors and this student now that I know what happened.

This is what most instructors would do, from my experience first as a D/M and then as an instructor myself.

You try to move everyone along together, as much as possible, as a group. But if someone has a particular problem, they can normally continue with the group, and then later the instructor can work with that person one on one, or else a D/M can help them as well.

In any class, you are going to have 3 groups of students:

o Those who catch on quickly
o Those who catch on slowly
o Those closer to normal who are in-between

The advanced students (the fast learners) you try to pair up with each other, if possible. You give these pairs to a D/M, and the 3 of them go on tours together.

The normal, in-between students are the ones you pace the course for. They act as your barometer.

The slower learners you normally give to a D/M individually, so that the D/M can help them develop the particular skill, after you as the instructor have shown them how to do it, and tried to help them initially.

I have never taught a class without at least one A/I or D/M with me for even the smallest class (4), and several A/Is or D/Ms for a larger class.

And that is how it works, in scuba instruction.

As to your original question, What is too young for scuba certification? There are two answers. The most important answer is the agency's answer. For NAUI, that is 12.

My personal opinion is that youth should not be learning scuba until they are 18 and in college. Or else 21 if not in college. But that is my own personal view.

 

[Afraid_of_Fish]

Okay I think teenagers and kids, in the dive world, should be treated exactly the same adults. This means you do not talk down to us, you respect us, you respect our decisions the same you would anyone elses, and you trust us to be good buddies.

However, if you want the pros you have to have the cons. If we want to be treated equally, then we have to be treated equally in every aspect. Part of the reason adult divers, I think, look down on teen-divers, is because instructors pass us so easily. Therefore many adults feel they need to 'watch us' to make sure we're okay while diving. This shouldn't be the case. Anyone who can't do the drills should be failed, IMHO.

<33 Jess

 

[northcoast_diver]

Kids are allowed to drive cars at age 16, and that is dangerous and could get them killed, just like scuba. So I suppose for the sake of consistency it could be argued logically that kids who are 16 should be allowed to scuba too. Personally I would push both of those threshholds (scuba and driving) up to 18 for college kids, and 21 for kids not in college. There are busses that kids can take, and there is snorkeling and freediving that kids can do.

Why the higher threshholds? Because kids are wired mentally to have fun, and until they are about 25 they do not think about caution nor responsibility. That's why its better to wait, in my opinion.

 

[jkennedy]

WOW! What a great discussion. I am letting my granchildren make their own decesion about diving and then I will get involved. This was very educational. Thanks......

 

[scuba_frog]

Gary - maybe I need to clarify. Where our class is held, there is an observation area above the pool. The spectator can see what's going on but that's it. From what I have seen so far, it looks like the parent is certified, they are going on a cruise, and they wantt the kid to dive with them. So they sign the kid up, willing or not, sign the paperwork, drop them off, leave, and come back when it's all over. They never speak to the instructor to see if the kid is competant or not. Maybe this sounds extreme, but this has been my experience so far. I feel like they should stay at least for a couple class sessions and if all is going well, fine leave, but if the kid has an "I don't give a sh*t attitude", then I think the kid needs to be asked to leave and come back when they are more mature.

Jess - I agree with you with one added point. I agree that teens should be given respect, but it's a two way street, that respect also needs to be given back. With me, if you do not respect me or my opinion, you are sure not going to get it back.

I agree that teens and kids should be treated equally for testing purposes. That only makes sense. As for "watching you", I have an 18 and 21 y/o...and believe me, just when you think they got it, their brain goes into some fog and you feel like you are starting back at square one, then reality kicks in again and everything is fine. Hey...that's the teen years.

 

[Diver0001]

Okay I think teenagers and kids, in the dive world, should be treated exactly the same adults. This means you do not talk down to us, you respect us, you respect our decisions the same you would anyone elses, and you trust us to be good buddies.

However, if you want the pros you have to have the cons. If we want to be treated equally, then we have to be treated equally in every aspect. Part of the reason adult divers, I think, look down on teen-divers, is because instructors pass us so easily. Therefore many adults feel they need to 'watch us' to make sure we're okay while diving. This shouldn't be the case. Anyone who can't do the drills should be failed, IMHO.

<33 Jess

Actually, what I see is that younger people tend to pick up the water skills easily. The issue I see in teaching young people to dive isn't the skills. It's the judgement.

R..

 

[Afraid_of_Fish]

Jess - I agree with you with one added point. I agree that teens should be given respect, but it's a two way street, that respect also needs to be given back. With me, if you do not respect me or my opinion, you are sure not going to get it back.

Well said. I would not respect anyone, adult or otherwise, who did not respect me in turn.

Actually, what I see is that younger people tend to pick up the water skills easily. The issue I see in teaching young people to dive isn't the skills. It's the judgement.

Everyone is different. Some teens have the judgement of an ape, others have better judgement than adults. I once went on a dive with an adult who turned off my uncles air because he thought it would be funny. I don't think teens should be stereo-typed as automaticly having bad judgement skills. We should be looked at the same way as adults are -- divers whom you know nothing about, so shouldn't judge.

Just my opinion.

<33 Jess

 

[Diver0001]

....snip....

Everyone is different. Some teens have the judgement of an ape, others have better judgement than adults. I once went on a dive with an adult who turned off my uncles air because he thought it would be funny. I don't think teens should be stereo-typed as automaticly having bad judgement skills. We should be looked at the same way as adults are -- divers whom you know nothing about, so shouldn't judge.

Just my opinion.

<33 Jess

Fair enough. You're right that some teens have good judgement and some adults don't. I see that. Just thinking back, however, I wasn't feeling "mortal" until later. By the time I had that feeling I had lost several friends (not diving) to bad judgement and had myself managed a broken arm, a broken collarbone a dislocated shoulder a knee injury cycling that I still feel sometimes, a 1/2 year of not skiing because of two sets of broken skis in the same year plus a snapped off tree and a serious sprain in my shin, a back injury and a night in the hospital with some kind of internal injury doing Kung Fu and an ugly fall from my motocycle. And that's not even mentioning diving. And I gurantee you I wasn't even that wild. Almost all of my close friend have similar stories.

The feeling of "mortal", which is in my mind a prerequisite for good judgement, came to me after the bodies of dead friends started to pile up. Maybe some people are born with this feeling but I think it has to "come" to most of us.

Having said that, I started diving as a teen too and showed better judgement diving than with most of the other things I did. I think the training was instrumental in making me aware that there are limits and they should be respected. I still did some things that I wouldn't do anymore like fast "free fall" decents, not respecting my gear, diving deeper than 40 metres (acutally most people were doing that in the 80's but that's another story.....) and making "any dive" at "any time" with "anyone".....

R..

 

[RonDawg]

I don't think teens should be stereo-typed as automaticly having bad judgement skills. We should be looked at the same way as adults are -- divers whom you know nothing about, so shouldn't judge.

While it is true that there are careful teens and careless older adults, the fact remains that AS A GROUP, teens tend to take more risks, and are more likely to become injured. One need look no further than car accident statistics for proof.

Also keep in mind that us judgmental adults were teenagers at one time too, and perhaps even engaged in such reckless activity when we were that age. But, unlike you and your peers, we have the advantage of hindsight which is always 20/20.

 

[Afraid_of_Fish]

While it is true that there are careful teens and careless older adults, the fact remains that AS A GROUP, teens tend to take more risks, and are more likely to become injured. One need look no further than car accident statistics for proof.

Also keep in mind that us judgmental adults were teenagers at one time too, and perhaps even engaged in such reckless activity when we were that age. But, unlike you and your peers, we have the advantage of hindsight which is always 20/20.

Well, AS A GROUP, people over forty tend to suffer from more heart attacks than teens. Does this mean I should follow all 40+ divers around to make sure they don't pass out underwater? No. You assume they are fit to be diving, and should assume the same with us. In the classroom we are the same as adults, and should be underwater as well.

<33 Jess