When should you flunk a student

[Diver0001]

You know, the point about judgement doesn't need to be blown out of proportion. It's something that needs extra attention. That's all.

R..

 

[scubbydoo]

I am certified Advanced Open Water with IDEA in Canada. Our instructors don't accept anyone under the age of twelve. The answer to the question is fairly simple I think. SCUBA is potentialy dangerous because it is an endeavour spent in an environment not natural to man and therefore requires special equipment and skills to survive in that environment. Until a person of any age demonstrates knowledge of their equipment and the skills to survive comfortably below the surface, they should not be allowed to do so, paid fees or not.

 

[scuba_frog]

Jess - you never state your age, but I can tell you are the exception to the stereotypical teen ager. You seem to have your head screwed on straight and understand your "mortality". I would have no problem diving with you.

Your statement about the 40+ age group, other than hitting me below the belt, you are absolutely correct...you should not judge. Knowing how my kids are, I will usually give most teens the benefit of the doubt. But one screw up, and my attitude will change. Whether it was a brain bubble or their normal disposition, it really doesn't take much for me to change my tune, especially if it is at a dive.

And you are right about adults with bad judgement. I see it all the time. But we are not is a perfect world. I just hope that the people I dive with are less "less perfect" than others.

But bottom line, I think some (not all, I don't want to make a blanket statement here)instructors need to step to the plate, ignore their budgets and revenue expectations, and get the cahonus to either not allow a student in the class, or kick them out, or flunk them if they do not have the ability to perform the necessary skills OR lack the necessary judgement to be a safe diver.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[baltimoron]

I'm seventeen and here is my input-

i usually am a single diver, and i know my buddy is going to take a look at me and go, "Oh sh*t, i am going to die." things aren't going to change that not matter how much we winge about it. i don't worry about because i know i am a competant diver, i am not some space case stoner, and i know my stuff! OK, so i will have to prove myself underwater to my buddy the first time around- i will just have to make sure i don't screw up the first time around. i know it will go away after time, thats the way it is. i am not going to make a big deal out of it, but i am going to thank the guy that puts me at the starting line rather than behind so i dont have to run a longer race.

hey jess, maybe you and I should take stress and rescue.... that'll show them!

 

[GDI]

NEVER You work with them until they get it right even if that means charging them more. That is customer service. They should quit on you long before you do on them but then I'm idealistic aren't I. That is my view for O/W students. More advanced levels? Well lets just say there has been a few divers go home without certification

 

[RonDawg]

Well, AS A GROUP, people over forty tend to suffer from more heart attacks than teens. Does this mean I should follow all 40+ divers around to make sure they don't pass out underwater? No. You assume they are fit to be diving, and should assume the same with us. In the classroom we are the same as adults, and should be underwater as well.

Prior to our classes we were all supposed to have medical releases signed by our doctors saying we were medically fit enough to go scuba diving. Or at least my PADI instructor imposed such a requirement..."your mileage may vary."

Part of the ability to make sound judgements is having the life experience behind them. Those who've had terrifying spinouts are more likely to drive carefully in poor traction conditions. Those who have been electrocuted are more likely to be extra careful around electricity. It's not like we've never been told to drive slower in the rain or to never disrespect electricity. But nothing hits home, or is more effective at changing bad behaviors, than experiencing the bad and living to tell about it.

Teenagers, by default, lack the life experience sometimes needed to make good judgments. When you combine that with the "rebellion" factor and the "immortality" factor, under certain situations it can be deadly. Driving is a good analogy because it's a potentially dangerous activity that, at least in the US, is well represented on both sides of the spectrum. Almost everybody in this country over the age of 15 has operated a motor vehicle. Scuba diving is an activity pursued by few adults and even fewer teenagers.

So when us "judgmental" adults say things like "Teenagers lack good judgement" it's not meant to be the insult that you are taking it to be, but rather a perception based upon having "been there and done that" and living to tell about it.

 

[jbd]

Okay I think teenagers and kids, in the dive world, should be treated exactly the same adults. This means you do not talk down to us, you respect us, you respect our decisions the same you would anyone elses, and you trust us to be good buddies.

This is a two way street. From what I have seen over the last 10 to 12 years, teens don't have a particularly shining record in this area.

If we want to be treated equally, then we have to be treated equally in every aspect.

:06: Not clear about your point here.

Part of the reason adult divers, I think, look down on teen-divers, is because instructors pass us so easily. Therefore many adults feel they need to 'watch us' to make sure we're okay while diving. This shouldn't be the case.

As a scuba instructor I have worked with or observed only a few(a dozen) teens and they didn't pass easily. The quizzes and written exam proved to be quite challenging for them for many reasons somewhat by default of them being teens. In fairness I should clarify these are early teens. As to an adult diving with teens--well just consider where the legal liability would be if something went wrong during a dive and both divers ended up injured? Or even if the adult was injured or killed during the accident. It is very doubtful if the teen would be held responsible. Adults have a vested interest in 'watching' closely any teen they dive with. When diving with anyone, buddy awareness should be on the top of the 'to do' list.

 

[Tampabay]

Nothing in the world can be more important than common sense....You must have the ability to learn and want to learn....Safety Must come first...No matter what age...

 

[Afraid_of_Fish]

Jess - you never state your age, but I can tell you are the exception to the stereotypical teen ager. You seem to have your head screwed on straight and understand your "mortality". I would have no problem diving with you.

Thank you! And for the record, I'm fifteen.

This is a two way street.

I know it is. I said in the next paragraph that we should be treated the same in the classroom as adults (that was what I mean by beaing treated equally in every aspect. Ie. in the pool and in the ocean.) Though, as you are an instructor, you obviously have your own views, and we may have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Prior to our classes we were all supposed to have medical releases signed by our doctors saying we were medically fit enough to go scuba diving. Or at least my PADI instructor imposed such a requirement..."your mileage may vary."

Part of my point was that if a student displays their emotional immaturness, they should be failed. If an instructor has any doubts as to a students ability to make good judgement underwater, or their ability to successfully complete tasks on which their lives may someday depend, they should be failed. Age and money regardless. Driving is something that all 16 yr olds in America want to do. Scuba diving is not. It means a lot fo extra class and study time, for a sport that most probably doesn't interest them. Therefore the assumption should be that teens who put the effort into getting certified are serious about it.
Why don't we just agree to disagree on this one, as it doesn't seem likely that either of us will change the others mind.

<33 Jess

 

[Afraid_of_Fish]

hey jess, maybe you and I should take stress and rescue.... that'll show them!

I think I'm up for that, Zack. lol.

<33 Jess