When PADI doesn't recognize PADI

[chillyinCanada]

OK. My apologies.

 

[iluvtheocean]

A recent OW graduate who has only done my four open water dives (two ocean, two mucky lagoon) and a half dozen pool dives (practicing basic OW skills while I wait for the local quarries to warm up), I've also been looking into getting my AOW. Talked to an independent PADI instructor (not associated with any LDS) that I had hired a few years ago to host a snorkeling party (to teach snorkeling) for a bunch of my son's friends for his 10th birthday. I was gobsmacked when he told me he would not accept my PADI OW cert, and to do PADI AOW with him I would have to redo a PADI OW refresher course with him (I got certified less than two months ago and have tried to do one pool dive each week since certification) before he would instruct me with AOW. He said he would not accept another PADI instructor's certification (and he never asked me who I got certified with).

I thought this was really bizarre.

Best,
-Tim

even after reading the whole thread had a question or 2 -- i understand the need for a possible skills assessment but not an actual refresher since certification was less than 90 days prior. -- but could you wait for the assessment until the quarries warm up somewhat? or use a thicker wetsuit

the LDS you got certified at -- they said they normally offer AOW only at certain times -- do they offer private maybe? what about other LDS in the area? one of the local divers on here in your area may be able to recommend one that'll fit your situation or recommend an indie who will work -- and doesn't necessarily have to be padi.

 

[Diver0001]

Not sure how I could have been much clearer, but let me just repeat:
The instructor told me I would have to pay for pool time (a little over $200 for the pool he uses) and pay for the PADI OW refresher course (not sure what that cost is) BEFORE we could start the AOW course, and naturally I would have to pay for the AOW course as well.

Best,
-Tim

What your instructor is *required* by standards to offer in the AOW training includes an in-water assessment.

As I said above, *how* he decides to do that is up to him. In this case he wishes to use the scuba-review as an instrument, which makes a LOT of sense to me because it's a structured method that covers all the bases. However, in deciding to do so, he incurs certain costs, which he expects you to pay.

Is that his prerogative? yes.

Is it good business? not so much.

The fact that he told you that an assessment is necessary and that he's standing his ground on doing a thorough job of it is something that gives me a good vibe about his approach.

That said, he does have other options. If you still want him to train you but you don't want to pay so much for pool time, then suggest to him to do it in (shallow) open water. He's allowed to do that.

R..

---------- Post added May 15th, 2014 at 09:21 PM ----------

even after reading the whole thread had a question or 2 -- i understand the need for a possible skills assessment but not an actual refresher since certification was less than 90 days prior. -- but could you wait for the assessment until the quarries warm up somewhat? or use a thicker wetsuit

The scuba review (also know as "refresher") is a common instrument for this because it literally covers all of the skills you did in OW. The instructor is not *required* to use the scuba review as an instrument for assessment but it's very common to do so because any other approach would be less comprehensive.

R..

 

[RJP]

Yes, I think it's bizarre that he's insisting you do a refresher course first.

But I also think it's bizarre that he would teach you AOW at all, refresher course or not. You really need to do some actual dives that are not under the direct supervision of an instructor (and while it's great that you're trying to work on your skills off-season, pool dives don't count). PADI doesn't specifically require that, but a prudent instructor should.

The above, of course, is one persons opinion. As such, the poster is entitled to be way off base.



AOW - certainly in the PADI world - is really just "Intro to Diving 2." As such, it is perfectly acceptable to take immediately following OW. In fact, if you only do OW dives 3 and 4 in a day, there is no reason that you can't do your first AOW dive that same day.

The only reason that someone should not progress immediately to AOW is if they are not ready to do so from a skill and comfort standpoint. And if that's the case, the issue is that they should not have been issued an OW certificate.

As others have mentioned above, an PADI instructor needs to - and should - conduct an in-water assessment of an unknown student coming to them for Con Ed. Personally, I'm not certain I would make this take the form of an actual full-blown (and full price) Scuba Review. But I'm lucky in that our shop has a pool, so I'd invite a prospective student to come by before the AOW dives and get in the pool. Assessment would be pretty easy - either you know what you're doing, or you don't. Assuming the diver did, I'd spend some timing adding value by working on buoyancy, trim, and propulsion techniques. If the diver did NOT know what they were doing... we'd spend the time getting sorted.

Either way, think of it from the perspective of the AOW instructor. If I don't know you from the man in the moon and agree to simply meet you at the dive site, boat, whatever, with the rest of the class and it turns out you're a wet mess, now what? You've paid for the dives, the boat, travel, materials, etc... and at THAT POINT I have to tell you that you can't dive? What of the other students - who have also paid for the dives, the boat, travel, materials, etc? Am I supposed to make them dive with an unsafe, unskilled diver? Or do I cancel/modify their class? Do I refund everyone and call it a day?

I can certainly understand that the OP is not happy about having to do an extra step, much less pay for it. But given that the instructor in question has a legitimate need to conduct an in-water assessment prior to taking you into open water (and needs to pay for pool time to do so) I'm not sure what satisfactory options are available. Perhaps he should have served it up differently, maybe even offering it as an enhancement of the course. I don't believe there's any reason that an AOW student can't be taken into confined water, have an assessment, and then begin to work on skills relevant to one or more of the adventure dives selected for the AOW course.

---------- Post added May 15th, 2014 at 04:25 PM ----------

Perhaps he didn't explain it well, but instructors are [-]encouraged[/-] required to assess incoming advanced students.

Fixed it for you...

 

[iluvtheocean]

just something i saw while re-reading the original post -- was said doing a pool dive maybe every week or so.... which means the OP has regular access to a pool where he can use scuba gear --- could that be an acceptable pool for use with this instead of having to pay $200 for this other pool that was talked about? might be able to work out something where can demonstrate the skills there and proceed from there ?... if the skills aren't up to par then a refresher to bring up to par can be discussed etc.. ? just my thoughts..

just googled Haigh Quarry -- temps are 50 to low 40s there as of the 9th

 

[Timmyjoe]

This is turning into a lot longer discussion than I had envisioned when I started the thread.

I'm on good terms with an LDS that has a pool and as I've bought a bunch of equipment there, the owner has been letting me use the pool about once a week to practice skills and try out equipment (much of which I then purchase). This other instructor (whom this thread is about) is not associated with any LDS, and I think he has a chip on his shoulder about how he is the best, and "only quality" dive instructor in our area. Highly doubt the LDS owner would welcome me and this other instructor to use his pool, and I wouldn't be comfortable doing that as it wouldn't be fair to the LDS owner, and I also think this other instructor wouldn't want to be in the "enemy camp". What I find pretty ridiculous is there are three quarries in our area (within 100 miles (welcome to Midwest Diving)) where I would be happy to dive with this other instructor to show him my abilities. But he wouldn't agree to do that.

I can certainly understand an instructor not wanting to take on a student whom he had no experience with, especially if that student had been certified by a shop with a questionable reputation. But I've been in the water with this instructor numerous times, and he hasn't asked me who I got my certification with.

The whole reason I started this thread was the shock of hearing one PADI instructor say he would not accept the PADI certification from another instructor, without the student first going through a PADI OW refresher course.

I'm going to leave this thread now. There is nothing more I can add.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Best,
-Tim

 

[Frosty]

OP I strongly suspect that you have left out a fair bit of the background to this conversation.
You might not even have realised it but things you said and HOW you said them would have triggered the instructor to react how he did.
MY reaction to you telling me your TOTAL scuba experience was four dives would be very similar to his.
He might not have said it very well -clearly diddn't or you wouldn't be posting on here.
Hopefull this explains it.
With four dives you might be a natural.
Weighting right in the zone,perfect boyancy control, Great fin skills etc and you can find your way back to the boat (shore) in a force 9 gale with viz at 15 feet. OR you might have none of those skills sorted yet.
Given I diddn't do your basic (OW) training I wouldn't be doing YOU any favours at all if we plowed on into the AOW course without us both working together to figure out the best way to structure your AOW course.
The ONLY way to do this effectively is to do a checkout dive with me and I find the refresher class gives the perfect structure to work out what will offer you the very best AOW classes FOR YOU to carry on from where you left off.
Im here to give you the very BEST bang for buck I can.
Tim -your first post is different from the post you just made. How many scuba dives have you actually done and when you say the instructor has been in the water with you several times. Are you saying you have scuba dived with him several times?

Tim I also have to say that to a degree the instructor is correct. The padi "book" for OW is standardised around the world.
BUT the QUALITY of the training you get varies hugely. Now he might very well be on a big ol ego trip but alternatively he might be right.
You right now unfortunately just aren't qualified to comment. -sorry if that seems harsh It's not intended.
In a nutshell I genuinely feel that either you need to trust that this guy is offereing to do what he feels is best for YOU or not.
If not then from day 1 you have reduced confidence in him which will reduce what you get out of doing your AOW.

 

[Diver0001]

AOW - certainly in the PADI world - is really just "Intro to Diving 2." As such, it is perfectly acceptable to take immediately following OW.

Ray, I disagree. I know this is what they taught you in the IE but once you've been teaching long enough to get living bejezus scared out of you by pushing people too fast too soon with all that idealistic "diving is fun" BS then you'll probably realize, as I did, that even though PADI accepts it, it's only you and your student who have your balls on the chopping block. *You* are the one who needs to decide if a given student can handle it at a give point in time in given circumstances. PADI sets maximum boundaries (maximum, not minimum!). As an instructor you are allowed and expected to stay *well* within those boundaries; to respect your local conditions and to decide for yourself what's "safe" and what is not.

Never EVER defer judgement about what's safe (within standards) to agency policy. Take your responsibility as an instructor and get a hard head in this now......because I promise you that you don't want to get a hard head in it later due to things happening like what happened to us in 2008.

I promise you, pulling (nearly) dead people out of the water changes you and you're better off listening to your conscience before that happens than afterwards. It wasn't even our group, the accident happened by another group that we didn't even know... but we were the ones who acted. It was (if I do say so myself) a textbook rescue and the victim lived but one of my CA's never dove much again due to the trauma.

Where was I with that... oh yeah.... So drink a *little* Kool-aid but not a lot. The OP's instructor was well within his right and acting competently to insist on doing an assessment.

R..

 

[TSandM]

I think the instructor is doing the right thing by wanting a skills assessment on the student he has never seen dive. However, if there are local quarries available where a shallow water skills assessment could be done, and the OP is willing to do that, then insisting that it has to be done in a $200 pool is absurd to me. I can't believe the cost is so high! We rent a lane in a local pool for $25 an hour, and I suspect we would know everything we needed to know about someone by the time 60 minutes had ticked by.

 

[Timmyjoe]

OP I strongly suspect that you have left out a fair bit of the background to this conversation.

I left out nothing, it was a very short conversation.

The ONLY way to do this effectively is to do a checkout dive with me and I find the refresher class gives the perfect structure to work out what will offer you the very best AOW classes FOR YOU to carry on from where you left off.

As I've repeatedly stated, I would be happy to do a checkout dive with him in any of the three quarries in our area. But I ain't paying over $200 for a pool session.

Tim -your first post is different from the post you just made. How many scuba dives have you actually done and when you say the instructor has been in the water with you several times. Are you saying you have scuba dived with him several times?

Read what I wrote carefully, all of it. I have been in the water with this instructor numerous times swimming and snorkeling. He taught me some good methods of underwater photography while snorkeling. I also free dive when I am doing photography (not as a sport), though I have never free dove with this instructor.

You right now unfortunately just aren't qualified to comment. -sorry if that seems harsh It's not intended.

I do believe I am allowed to comment on my shock that one PADI instructor would not accept the certification of another PADI instructor. I was told when I started PADI training that PADI was accepted all over the world.

In a nutshell I genuinely feel that either you need to trust that this guy is offereing to do what he feels is best for YOU or not.
If not then from day 1 you have reduced confidence in him which will reduce what you get out of doing your AOW.

I think he is offering me a chance to separate my cash from my wallet, and insinuating that he is the only qualified PADI instructor in our area.

Best,
-Tim