When PADI doesn't recognize PADI

[Kharon]

Sounds like an arrogant p***k. Would you really want to have someone with that attitude as an instructor?

 

[Diver0001]

That's not what it sounded like to me.

I got the impression from the OP that this was either

a) a miscommunication where the instructor told him, perhaps clumsily, that he would need to do a skills assessment (which is requirement of AOW) and the OP misinterpreted that to mean that he wouldn't accept a PADI cert

or

b) a certain amount of arrogance on the part of the instructor with respect to how good he is as compared to everyone else.

I didn't get the impression from the OP that the instructor didn't want to train him. Just that he wanted to do things in a way that the OP found strange.

R..

 

[Malpaso]

My first question is, why you aren't going back to your OW instructor for AOW. This may be the same question the second instructor is asking himself.

 

[iamjblevine]

OP:
Think about this from the instructor's perspective for a moment. He doesn't know your dive skills from Adam's. You plunk down the big money for the AOW and he discover's that you don't have any buoyancy control, can't clear a mask, and can't use a compass. Now we have a dillemma of he spends a lot of additional time, usually at no additional charge, teaching you these things and he is pissed off because his effective hourly wage just went through the floor. Or he tells you he can't certify you because you don't know how to do the basics and you are pissed off because you are out the money.
The scuba review is a low cost way for both of you both get on the same page as far as expectations go. Furthermore if you think he is a tool during the scuba review, you can also walk away without paying for the big class.
Finally, would you be this upset if his price for class was $40.00 higher and he gave a $40.00 discount to prior students?

 

[Timmyjoe]

Just to clarify a few things, the reason I'm not going back to the original instructor I had for OW (which I would like to do), is because that LDS has a set schedule of when they teach AOW and only four times this summer. All include a Saturday of diving and a Sunday of diving. I am a sports photographer by trade and shoot for one of the Chicago papers, and I'm usually on assignment on Saturdays, so I am exploring other options.

I have worked with this instructor over the years as far as snorkeling issues are concerned. Hired him to teach me snorkeling techniques for photography years ago, and over the past five years have hired him at different times to teach family members snorkeling and as previously mentioned, to host a snorkeling party for my son's birthday. He has seen first hand how conscientious and competent a swimmer and snorkeler I am. And I certainly would have no problem doing an OW dive with him so he can judge my skills. What he is insisting on doing is a pool session (the cost of which would be born by me and is over $200 for the couple hours), on top of the cost for an OW refresher course, and then the cost of AOW. All this without even asking who I got my PADI OW certification through.

I politely told him "No Thank You."

The reason I posted this here is that I was quite surprised to hear one PADI instructor tell me he would not accept the PADI certification I got through another instructor, and that I would have to do a PADI OW refresher course with him before he would instruct me in AOW. Didn't realize that your PADI OW certification only counted in the shop where you got it. Thought it was universally accepted.

Best,
-Tim

 

[Diver0001]

I am regularly involved in AOW classes in a PADIi dive center, and all OW divers are welcome. We assess during the class, and make it clear that there are standards to met before issue the certification just as in OW, but the standards are higher. Not everyone gets the AOW card the first go. I prefer divers who have at least 20 non-training open water dives before starting the AOW class, but some with less experience do fine and some with more do not do as well. There is no accurate predictor, and so all OW divers are welcome in the class. Assessment comes during the class, including during the AOW open water dives. That is where it belongs. The problem with "independent" instructors, regardless of their agency affiliation, is that they can, in some cases, have a tendency to "make up" their own rules, and I guess that is their business. But Timmyjoe, the instructor with whom you spoke is full of gas. I suggest you go elsewhere.
DivemasterDennis

I believe if you follow the letter of the standards that you're required to assess before commencing training. Is it always necessary? no. It is always required? yes.

I'll admit that I have a bit of of a problem with the current AOW format. The tempo is at least an order of magnitude higher than I would like it. In that sense I kind of connect with what the OP's instructor was saying. It's not something to rush into and the vast majority of students coming out of OW aren't ready to start a week or two after they're done. I know lots of instructors do it but lots of instructors do lots of things that aren't very wise.

In my context the big problem is the deep dive. I train in conditions where you can't see the surface once you're 5m under the water, let alone 30m. The deep dive is a REALLY big step for inexperienced divers in those conditions unless they're naturals. I've taken to declining to train people for AOW unless they're willing to do five *specialites* as opposed to 5 dives unless they have an equivalent amount of experience coming in. That's not me "making up my own rules", that's me setting boundaries on my own comfort zone. I need to be comfortable at the end of the day that I've trained them to do what I've certified them to do....in our local conditions. That is my job and my moral and ethical responsibility.

In my case I'm completely open about the rules but I tell them that if they're looking for minimal training that they should look for a shop/instructor who is willing to offer that. I don't lie to them, and I don't lie to them when I tell them that making 1 or maybe 2 dives to 30 metres and somehow surviving it makes them competent and qualified to repeat that experience without getting additional training and without supervision/mentoring.

Again... mostly with respect to diving deep in our local area.

The standards are the minimum. PADI says that you must certify someone who meets minimum performance requirements, but they don't say that you must *offer* minimum standards in every local area. No instructor is forced to accept a student who meets the minimum prerequisite. That much is up to the instructor.

R..

 

[TMHeimer]

OP:
Think about this from the instructor's perspective for a moment. He doesn't know your dive skills from Adam's. You plunk down the big money for the AOW and he discover's that you don't have any buoyancy control, can't clear a mask, and can't use a compass. Now we have a dillemma of he spends a lot of additional time, usually at no additional charge, teaching you these things and he is pissed off because his effective hourly wage just went through the floor. Or he tells you he can't certify you because you don't know how to do the basics and you are pissed off because you are out the money.
The scuba review is a low cost way for both of you both get on the same page as far as expectations go. Furthermore if you think he is a tool during the scuba review, you can also walk away without paying for the big class.
Finally, would you be this upset if his price for class was $40.00 higher and he gave a $40.00 discount to prior students?

Points are well taken. But I think there would be mistakes: One is why would the instructor spend all that extra time re-teaching the OW stuff during the AOW course in the first place? When I took Nitrox one or two in the class needed significant class time re-learning the Air tables (before computers were part of courses of course)--not fair to the rest of us.
The other mistake may be if the instructor did not pass the student to AOW cert. and felt bad if the student was pissed off that he spent the $ on it--why should he feel bad about this?. The student should've known the OW stuff first. If he did know all the "OW skills" (one being compass nav) but just didn't do them great or wasn't completely comfortable with his basic diving, that's a different thing. That points to more experience needed prior to doing AOW which is up to the agency to require (the ___ # of required logged dives thing). We know this varies a lot from diver to diver though. If you're someone who didn't like grow up on the water you won't be as good at first with scuba than someone who did. I don't think I had any problems doing AOW after only 2 post OW dives. Maybe that's why PADI OKs it to go right from OW to AOW?

 

[boulderjohn]

The strange logistics of Colorado, where only a small percentage of our students do their checkout dives in state and where we do not have a deep enough body of water to do the AOW and must do them out of state, means that I pretty rarely have the opportunity to do AOW classes with students I have seen dive before. When I do the AOW class, I commit to complete the class with the student, regardless of the starting point of skills. I first discuss the student's history to get an idea of the experience and comfort in the water. I have never had a student come to me with no recent experience, in which case I might suggest a pool review first. Instead, I schedule a safe and benign dive from the optional ones chosen as our starting point. I evaluate the student and then go from there. We cover what was required for that dive, of course, but I add whatever my diagnosis says is needed. I continue to work on just overall diving skills throughout the course, hopefully giving the student far more than expected.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Again, Tim, I ask did the instructor specifically tell you that YOU would have to pay over and above what he was charging you for the AOW? You've assumed that and believed it to be implied but near as I can tell from your posts, the instructor has not specifically told you that. If I'm mistaken, my apologies.

 

[Timmyjoe]

Not sure how I could have been much clearer, but let me just repeat:
The instructor told me I would have to pay for pool time (a little over $200 for the pool he uses) and pay for the PADI OW refresher course (not sure what that cost is) BEFORE we could start the AOW course, and naturally I would have to pay for the AOW course as well.

Best,
-Tim