When is it okay to abandon your dive buddy?
- Thread starter scoobajay
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"Do you really understand your computer or is it a threat to you"? Someone has resurrected this thread from 2004 and has been discussed briefly recently. Nothing has changed.
No one died from having too much gas but overstaying the ndl will introduce severe decompression obligation.
One of the challenges of Non Decompression Limits is they vary so widely between decompression algorithms and settings, especially between different types of computers.
As these are "recreational" dives, i.e. no decompression dives, the algorithm and settings are almost never discussed between divers -- that's very much a technical dive discussion. This means that the NDL limits are hit almost randomly by a group of recreational divers, especially if there's a bit of variation in depth.
Strange there's no recreational diving signal to indicate "my NDL is almost up". In "technical diving" there's the deco signal, with the little finger held upwards, but few in recreational diving would recognise that.
ATJ
Contributor
NDL was taught in all OW course.
I was taught to use Table in the beginning and then "The Wheel" as I progressed to AOW(Speciality).
I believe Table has more or less became obsolete and wonder if the NDL between various algorithms used in computer has ever discussed?
I refrain to show my little finger to any stranger!!!
In this case I see it the responsability of the guide. Officially every diver can abord a dive at every time with every reason.
But if there is for others no reason, then only abord yourself and the others can decide to go on. Of course not letting you in problems.
For myself, over 2300 dives, also doing technical solodives, I will not follow a group if they are going too fast. I also pay for a dive and then I will stay behind and dive solo without problems. I take pictures and are a slow swimmer, but can be a fast one if there is something interesting. I also can get deeper or shallower then.
The biggest problem in diving in groups is the difference in experience. I tell them in front that my airconsumption is low and that I don't go up when it is not my time. I don't want to end a dive with 100 bars or more left. Normally this is no problem. Also I tell them that the amount of gas in a tank depends the divetime, not the operator that is in a hurry and things 45 minute rush dives are normal. On a reef of 10m depth I can stay 90 minutes on a ali80 tank.
A stranger as divebuddy means that in a real problem I will take my responsability. But if this is shortening or making my dive bad, I will not pay for the dive. It is not my task then.
Yes, on guided dives I had 2 times a diver on my longhose (I dive recreational also with longhose configuration), and then I will help. But a diver that cannot get down, or doesn't have bouyancy or is draining tanks, it will not be my buddy. As a paying customer you also need a good dive.
Most divecenters accept this and don't make problems if you stay longer solo. Sometimes they ask to stay not too far from the boat, but if there are some rocks, I can always find something interesting.
But if you have a divecenter that puts an AOW diver with 10 dives together with one with over 2000 dives, this will not work.
NDL is just a guideline and no absolute math in the way that you die if you go over the NDL of your computer. Don't be afraid if your computer shows 'deco' and others don't. Make a safetystop, maybe 2-3 minutes longer and most deco is gone if your computer shows up to 5 minutes of deco. If you have 10 minutes of deco, and others not, then your conservatism is different. Also then don't worry. It is never bad to go up from the last 6 meters with 1m/minute. That is how technical divers do it.
Also from 30m and go up with 1min@12, 1min@9 and 3min@6 as safety stop is never bad.
Divemasters and divecenters should know more about decompression diving and in my eyes it will not be bad if every divemastercandidate does a solodivecourse to know it can be done safe. I see too many divemasters with just 60-65 dives that almost cannot help and safe theirselves.
But if there is for others no reason, then only abord yourself and the others can decide to go on. Of course not letting you in problems.
For myself, over 2300 dives, also doing technical solodives, I will not follow a group if they are going too fast. I also pay for a dive and then I will stay behind and dive solo without problems. I take pictures and are a slow swimmer, but can be a fast one if there is something interesting. I also can get deeper or shallower then.
The biggest problem in diving in groups is the difference in experience. I tell them in front that my airconsumption is low and that I don't go up when it is not my time. I don't want to end a dive with 100 bars or more left. Normally this is no problem. Also I tell them that the amount of gas in a tank depends the divetime, not the operator that is in a hurry and things 45 minute rush dives are normal. On a reef of 10m depth I can stay 90 minutes on a ali80 tank.
A stranger as divebuddy means that in a real problem I will take my responsability. But if this is shortening or making my dive bad, I will not pay for the dive. It is not my task then.
Yes, on guided dives I had 2 times a diver on my longhose (I dive recreational also with longhose configuration), and then I will help. But a diver that cannot get down, or doesn't have bouyancy or is draining tanks, it will not be my buddy. As a paying customer you also need a good dive.
Most divecenters accept this and don't make problems if you stay longer solo. Sometimes they ask to stay not too far from the boat, but if there are some rocks, I can always find something interesting.
But if you have a divecenter that puts an AOW diver with 10 dives together with one with over 2000 dives, this will not work.
NDL is just a guideline and no absolute math in the way that you die if you go over the NDL of your computer. Don't be afraid if your computer shows 'deco' and others don't. Make a safetystop, maybe 2-3 minutes longer and most deco is gone if your computer shows up to 5 minutes of deco. If you have 10 minutes of deco, and others not, then your conservatism is different. Also then don't worry. It is never bad to go up from the last 6 meters with 1m/minute. That is how technical divers do it.
Also from 30m and go up with 1min@12, 1min@9 and 3min@6 as safety stop is never bad.
Divemasters and divecenters should know more about decompression diving and in my eyes it will not be bad if every divemastercandidate does a solodivecourse to know it can be done safe. I see too many divemasters with just 60-65 dives that almost cannot help and safe theirselves.
I see a bit too much thread drift.
Scoobajay, as has been pointed out to you before the thread drift, reviewing hand signals together (perhaps make it a fun game you two play when at home).
I've had a similar experience or two, when my buddy and I have lost the group.
I've also been the one doing the fin tug for a variety of reasons and have learned that if my reason for the fin tug is really important (such as, hey, I've spotted our group), if the tug is not acknowledged or is, but no appropriate action taken, I do another fin tug that involves not letting go of the fin.
Just between the two of us, I think that part of your husband's reaction was his own nervousness about losing the group.
Scoobajay, as has been pointed out to you before the thread drift, reviewing hand signals together (perhaps make it a fun game you two play when at home).
I've had a similar experience or two, when my buddy and I have lost the group.
I've also been the one doing the fin tug for a variety of reasons and have learned that if my reason for the fin tug is really important (such as, hey, I've spotted our group), if the tug is not acknowledged or is, but no appropriate action taken, I do another fin tug that involves not letting go of the fin.
Just between the two of us, I think that part of your husband's reaction was his own nervousness about losing the group.
Blackcrusader
Contributor
Any diver can call a dive at anytime. If a dive buddy wants to swim fast away from a diver who is struggling to keep up then that person is not an acceptable dive buddy. The rule is if you get separate search for one minute then head to the surface. If not exceeding NDL then there is no obligation to do the safety stop. Go to the surface and wait for the other diver to do the same. If that diver does not search for one minute and then surface that dive buddy has ignored safety instructions.
Who uses tables for diving? Show me where people write down the dive plan for every dive.
Virtually everyone uses a dive computer nowadays. These have different algorithms which all result in different NDLs for the same dive: Buhllman + GF (which GFs?); RGBM (which 'P' setting); Other proprietary Suunto algorithms ('P'?); DSAT; et cetera.
All fine if you're doing shallow dives, but as soon as you get to around 30m/100' and especially on air you can easily exceed the NDL with a single tank. Now add in differences between diver depths, even a metre makes a difference to the NDLs
Confusing indeed.
Problem is that some computers -- Suunto -- will lock up for days if you dare to surface with 1 minute of deco left. Whatever kind of safety concept that is we will never know, but it's utterly stupid to turn an expensive dive computer into a brick.
This all leads to "NDL anxiety" and will just exacerbate the diver's stress, especially if they've been issued a poor buddy.
That's the problem with the word "master" to describe a novice. No experience of diving outside of their cosseted recreational world. Sorry, straying well off topic here.
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