When has DIR training resulted in a "save"?

[OE2X]

To sort of answer this question:
In 30 years of being a certified diver (most of which was as a www) I've never had an OOA. Going through DIRF changed my style of diving and made me a much better diver though.

Recently I had a new diver where it was advisable to do an air share from 50'. He still had 450 psi in his tank, but I had 2000. The air share went flawlessly and I think I can say that it was made much easier for me to direct the noobie because of all the practicing we do. Was it a save? Not in my estimation - just another CF-less dive.

 

[lamont]

Well.....you know.....I just don't think we'll get anywhere with an "us" vs "them" discussiion on this.

sorry, i do notice a difference though. all the GUE trained divers that i know of take team-diving seriously and treat things like buddy separation as a team failure and don't generally dive in ways that allow it to occur -- which means they obey the speed limits =). with non-GUE trained divers its a crapshoot. you'll find some divers who have also been taught this, but it isn't consistent -- you'll also find (potentially very experienced) divers who you'll spend the entire dive just following their fins and kicking as hard as you can -- which has never happened to me with a GUE trained diver.

i've also never had a GUE trained diver flash me a SPG with a needle way into the red.

if you read what i'm writing closely you'll notice that i'm not making a sweeping generalization, i'm talking about consistency. GUE divers are consistently better team divers, and consistently better at gas management. outside of GUE it depends on who the divers instructor was, or what they've managed to learn over the years, but apparently has very little to do with the agency standards.

 

[Diver0001]

sorry, i do notice a difference though. all the GUE trained divers that i know of take team-diving seriously and treat things like buddy separation as a team failure and don't generally dive in ways that allow it to occur -- which means they obey the speed limits =). with non-GUE trained divers its a crapshoot. you'll find some divers who have also been taught this, but it isn't consistent -- you'll also find (potentially very experienced) divers who you'll spend the entire dive just following their fins and kicking as hard as you can -- which has never happened to me with a GUE trained diver.

i've also never had a GUE trained diver flash me a SPG with a needle way into the red.

if you read what i'm writing closely you'll notice that i'm not making a sweeping generalization, i'm talking about consistency. GUE divers are consistently better team divers, and consistently better at gas management. outside of GUE it depends on who the divers instructor was, or what they've managed to learn over the years, but apparently has very little to do with the agency standards.

You're absolutly correct on the points you're making regarding the skills of GUE trained divers. But we'll need to pick up the comparison again when the GUE starts producing OW divers because at some level we're still comparing apples and oranges. I still maintain that comparing PADI OW divers to GUE trained *tek* and *cave* divers isn't a fair fight. You can't even take a GUE class unless you have over 100 dives IIRC.

R..

 

[mer]

You're absolutly correct on the points you're making regarding the skills of GUE trained divers. But we'll need to pick up the comparison again when the GUE starts producing OW divers because at some level we're still comparing apples and oranges. I still maintain that comparing PADI OW divers to GUE trained *tek* and *cave* divers isn't a fair fight. You can't even take a GUE class unless you have over 100 dives IIRC.

R..

Nope, Fundamentals only requires that you are 16 and have your OW cert. It recommends 25 dives, but for Fundamentals it is not required. I know many people taking fundamentals with only 10 dives under their belts. They do great having no bad habits to break.

Also, many GUE instructors teach OW classes through other agencies (SSI, PADI, PDIC etc) with back plate and wings, and an emphasis on buoyancy, buddy skills, situational awareness, and gas planning. I've dove with quite a few of these post OW, pre fundies divers. They need polishing, but they are generally right with their and decently aware.

 

[OE2X]

i've also never had a GUE trained diver flash me a SPG with a needle way into the red.

Remind me to do that to you sometime... if my tank ever gets that low.

 

[Diver0001]

Nope, Fundamentals only requires that you are 16 and have your OW cert. It recommends 25 dives, but for Fundamentals it is not required. I know many people taking fundamentals with only 10 dives under their belts. They do great having no bad habits to break.

Also, many GUE instructors teach OW classes through other agencies (SSI, PADI, PDIC etc) with back plate and wings, and an emphasis on buoyancy, buddy skills, situational awareness, and gas planning. I've dove with quite a few of these post OW, pre fundies divers. They need polishing, but they are generally right with their and decently aware.

I see. I didn't think Lamont meant DIR-F when he said GUE trained but the point still stands. Even someone with DIR-F is OW certified and has *some* experience plus (in Lamont's GUE trained version) they also have the benefit of additional training that an OW diver does not have.

Guys, I'll be the first to admit that PADI OW has some serious shortcomings (that absolutely need addressing) but I'd like to see us comparing apples and apples--divers with zero experience compared to divers with zero experience.

R..

 

[lamont]

Remind me to do that to you sometime... if my tank ever gets that low.

hmmm....

well, if I bring my double 130s along, I can probably run you down into the red, even with my SAC rate...

 

[onfloat]

You're absolutly correct on the points you're making regarding the skills of GUE trained divers. But we'll need to pick up the comparison again when the GUE starts producing OW divers because at some level we're still comparing apples and oranges. I still maintain that comparing PADI OW divers to GUE trained *tek* and *cave* divers isn't a fair fight. You can't even take a GUE class unless you have over 100 dives IIRC.

R..

I tool DIR F with 25 dives. Started working on my skills with the instructor at dive 15.

 

[globaldiver]

Guys, I'll be the first to admit that PADI OW has some serious shortcomings (that absolutely need addressing) but I'd like to see us comparing apples and apples--divers with zero experience compared to divers with zero experience. R..

As I mentioned earlier in my reply to one of your posts, I have (however in a limited amount) been able to compare divers with "zero experience" that both were regular PADI OW divers and "PADI divers" that also simultaneously had been trained in the DIR-concept. The difference is quite substantial. The amount of control in regards to both boyancy and situational awareness is much more present in the "DIR-trained" PADI divers.

Not really surprising to me though.

Anders

 

[Doubles]

Very interesting thread.

I am not a DIR trained diver, I read this forum frequently as well as other forums. I am not here for religous arguments, but to learn all I can from experience of others.

I hope the intent of the original question was to further the learning experience. That said.......

Mo2vation recently provided us all with a post of a bad experience that he was able to solve, and was also brave enough to share with us all. There were many posts in reply, some discussing how it was preventable, others offered suggestions, and others felt inspired to share similar experiences. The bottom line there was that it was a learning experience for all who took the time to read it without the "religous arguments".

I spent 20 years in the Coast Guard, commanded a few small ships. Anytime a collision or accident at sea occured, the resulting analysis or findings were required reading - it's educational. One reason I read a lot of these forums is for the same reason. The ability to learn from the mistakes of others. It would be a wonderful world if there were never another diving accident. That is not likely to be the case, after all we are all human. Proper training can prevent a lot, but accidents will still occur.

I think the better question (or even another forum) would be to tell all about your accidents or near accidents. The cause/solution, what you would do differently now that your on the surface with time to Monday morning QB your actions.

Lastly my guess is that the DIR philosiphy was developed with the hope of preventing accidents, and that it was based on real accidents and events. It's an ever changing world, training must always strive to evolve to the next level. This type of discussion may go a long way to help that evolution for all agencies.

Cheers