When has DIR training resulted in a "save"?

[Diver0001]

At the suggestion of ghrousseau in another thread, I thought I would start a thread in which DIR divers could share situations in which DIR training has directly resulted in a "save". It could be a situation that you were personally involved with or one that has come to your attention.

Be specific, so that non-DIR divers can also follow along and learn more about why DIR divers think that this training is so important.

Remember, this forum is for a free exchange of ideas concerning DIR. However, The DIR forum is not the place to challenge DIR or the attitudes of it's proponents. Posts like that will be considered trolling and will be deleted or split from this thread and moved to a more appropriate forum.

That does not mean that you can't ask legitimate questions about the system. So, feel free to ask questions and followup questions for clarification, but just don't argue about it when you get the DIR answers.

Christian

It might not be the whole picture but you can get an idea by comparing the fatality rates in the WKPP before George Irvine and after George Irvine. Since Irvine pushed DIR into the daylight, the fatality rate at the WKPP (to the best of my knowledge) has been zero.

R..

 

[Charlie99]

I don't know how good of an example this is. Andrew may have done a great job with the toxing diver but the toxing diver was a student with a messed up mix and that shouldn't happen in the first place.

We'll have to wait and see all the rest of the "DIR Save" reports come flooding in, but I suspect that in reality it IS a pretty good example in that most underwater problems are caused by turning one's brain off. In this case, a student posted a trip report that says

June 5th,2002 Day four....The last day of the course came quite fast but many of us were quite tired from the 15 hours days. For the last dive 5 of us were diving Trimix 30/30. Since you are required to make a Trimix dive to pass the course, we potentially had 5 who could make it.

The dive was supposed to be done from an old fishing boat which proved to be a challenge to organize the gear onto. In the confusion, one of the divers was left behind in the restaurant and was not noticed till we left the dock, that left 4. .........

The other students and teachers were tired and confused enough that they left one of the students behind on the dock, and the tox'd diver was the guy doing all the blending for the class -- so he was probably putting in lots of extra hours. That's not an excuse for violating basic gas analysis procedures, but it is a good reminder to everyone that fatigue, confusion and/or rushing a job can quickly lead to problems. http://members.tripod.com/mlloyd_1/croatia.htm


Extensive training and practice in recovering from problems obviously will help a lot when people do screw up. GUE training includes lots more problem recovery practice than the basic sort of reg recovery, mask clearing, etc. that is found in OW classes, so this better prepares DIR divers to recover from bigger and more serious screwups.

Although I've heard of some recoveries from oxtox on a 20' O2 stop, the report of Andrew G's save of his Tech 1 student is the only one I've heard about that was at depth.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It's also the only oxtox save that I've heard of. I wouldn't bet money on it working again though. Convulsing underwater is just a real bad situation to be in. I've seen the method demonstrated and since then I've demonstrated it to my own students.

The best thing that came from andrews story is that we now check gas as a group before the dive and sign off on eachothers gas regarless of any analysis that was done during and after mixing.

We still have the problem of forgetting people in restaurants but they're usually found alive and well fed once a search a rescue mission is mounted.

 

[wreckchick]

Pardon me for saying this, I know the toxing diver thing has been discussed before, but by the time you're so tired you lose a student on the dock, shouldn't smart people realize that diving that day *might* be a bad idea?

Also, to the person who says that fundies saved them because they could turn a valve on in the water, who taught you to do a pre-dive check? I've only gone in the water with my valve off ONCE and that was because my DM instructor shut it down to see how I'd react. By the way, I just reached back and turned it back on, no big deal.

R

 

[lamont]

what i notice most actually is not the 'saves', but the relative risks on the dive. with non-GUE trained divers you are likely to spend the dive chasing after their flutter kicking fins while trying too keep up and not to overbreathe your reg. or at the end of the dive you get shown a thumb along with an SPG with a needle *way* too far into the red.

 

[grazie42]

Lamont, does GUE also teach a speed limit for diving?

I´m sorry but I´ve seen GUE-trained divers moving just as fast as non-trained...the spg-thing might be a valid point though...

 

[JeffG]

Lamont, does GUE also teach a speed limit for diving?

Yes..and if you exceed it a diver with a flashing red and blue light bar over his manifolds shows up to give you a goooey ticket.

 

[Diver0001]

what i notice most actually is not the 'saves', but the relative risks on the dive. with non-GUE trained divers you are likely to spend the dive chasing after their flutter kicking fins while trying too keep up and not to overbreathe your reg. or at the end of the dive you get shown a thumb along with an SPG with a needle *way* too far into the red.

Well.....you know.....I just don't think we'll get anywhere with an "us" vs "them" discussiion on this. The problem with discussing when/if a "save" had to do with a particular type of training is difficult. How can we compare the example about the toxing diver being "saved" by a DIR diver to the example of the toxing diver who gets saved by a non DIR diver? Such an incident took place on the Monitor about a year ago IIRC. They both toxed, they were both saved. Who is to say that the DIR save was "better".

The same goes for skills. Suffice it to say that making sweeping generalizations only becomes divisive. We hear a lot about poor finning technique from PADI divers but I've read a story from a Dutch DIR diver (or divers) who takes great pride in "buzzing" the "strokes" with his scooter and freaking them out. Are when then to conclude that all DIR divers display this level of contempt for fellow divers? Sweeping generalizations on either side of the fence are not helpful.

I think the only really relevant way to approach the "save" issue is to compare incident rates among DIR divers and non DIR divers *with a comparable level of experience*. It's also not fair to compare the incidents of new OW divers with experienced cave divers with 1000 dives under their belt. One doesn't become a DIR diver with zero dives but one *does* become a PADI diver with zero dives.....

To the best of my knowledge the statistics we need are not available. All we have are stories and anecdotes and a "common sense" (whatever that is) feeling that the DIR methods are better. Statistically the only thing that I can think of to compare are the incident rates in the WKPP before and after DIR. That's all we have to go on to date.

R..

 

[Hank49]

I'm on the same page with Lamont. One day Hank may understand, provided he wants to take the time.

"a better metric might be how many CF-free dives you've had where there was no need for a 'save'."

I don't understand how you can use this as data to determine the success of a training method. There is far too much gray area.
Please forgive my stab at attempted humor with a quote from the movie, "The Beverly Hillbillies". I do agree with the concepts of DIR. I grovel at your feet begging forgiveness and can only dream and hope of one day achieving your level of skill and oneness with the ocean and her ways.

 

[globaldiver]

One doesn't become a DIR diver with zero dives but one *does* become a PADI diver with zero dives..... R..

Well, you do not become a PADI diver with zero dives either. It takes at least four OW dives...

I have previously, on a couple of occations, had the pleasure to dive with three newly examined PADI-divers that had been trained in the DIR-concept from scratch (along with the regular PADI OW-education). They were all far better and "safer" divers than any new "regular" PADI-diver I have seen. One of them only had the required four (4) OW-dives when she took the Fundamentals class. She did quite well, as a matter of fact better than many of us...

I agree that it, at this time, may be difficult to measure levels of safety between organisations objectively, but knowing the safety standards GUE applies to all aspects of DIR diving is good enought for me.

Anders