When are we gonna learn?

[kafkaland]

For me, the biggie here is the DM. He hired a dive professional because he know he was at the edge of his skill level. I wouldn't expect a visiting diver to know exactly how difficult a dive site really is at a particular day, and to be safe he did the prudent thing and hired a professional, through the local shop, I presume. If I was in that position, I would expect that professional to be intimately familiar with the site, being able to judge the conditions and call the dive if necessary, and once in the water, being able to competently help with solving problems that are not completely unexpected at this site, like kelp entanglement. And of course give unvarnished advice when in his judgment my experience isn't up to what's needed to dive this site, on this day, with this DM, safely. Now, I would imagine that it would take a good amount of experience for any professional to live up to those standards. The minimum curriculum to become a DM certainly doesn't prepare one to do this at this particular site, and that's where I the shop's responsibility comes in: to vet the DMs they are using and referring on their trips have the actual - not just paper - qualifications for guiding those dives.

 

[yle]

Since the issue of hiring the DM and the "lowering of the bar" of dive industry standards have both been brought up here, I'll throw in my two cents.

The PADI OW course emphasizes that every diver is responsible for knowing their limitations and deciding whether or not they are capable of handling a particular dive. Nowhere in the OW course is the suggestion that if a diver lacks the skill and experience to make a dive, then they can just hire a DM to babysit them and cover for their deficiencies.

Everyone involved (diver and people at the shop) should have been aware of this simple principle, but apparently everyone ignored it. The family is now advocating for increased "regulation" of the industry. But the guidelines are already in place. No doubt they are frequently ignored (I'm sure 99% of Belize's Blue Hole business would vanish if the guidelines were followed), and so occasionally accidents happen.

 

[drrich2]

Interesting about what's expected when hiring a private (personal) guide (a.k.a. 'Dive Master' - a term often used when the hired subject may even have instructor credentials).

Is this person hired to be a guide, to handle navigation so the customer seems the 'best' of a site, and gets back to the boat without getting lost?

Is this person a technical consultant, to decide whether the customer should or shouldn't do the dive in light of observable weather, surface current, etc...? Or to voice an opinion on the matter?

Is the person a care taker, expected to closely monitor the customer, assess how he's conducting his dive (e.g.: check his gas pressure remaining & dive computer's NDL display periodically), and recognize and intervene in hazardous incidents (e.g.: extract him from kelp entanglement) to a degree significantly in excess of standard 'insta-buddy' capacity?

When I use a guide, I expect him to take me on a nice tour of the site, and act as a GPS so I can enjoy a calm dive without being burdened with navigation issues yet return to the boat in a timely fashion. And I've (finally) dove kelp (this past summer), but I haven't dove the conditions some of you have described, so my expectations may not matter here.

Any thoughts on what the 'industry standard' view would be, in that area, of what's expected with hiring a private guide there?

Richard.

P.S.:

The PADI OW course emphasizes that every diver is responsible for knowing their limitations and deciding whether or not they are capable of handling a particular dive.

How many fairly new divers are capable of knowing enough about a site & conditions relative to their ability to make such a competent determination, when their ability is so untested, and they've little frame of reference for judging what they're told? How much do OW and AOW mainstream courses teach about dive site condition assessment, beyond recommendations not to start out diving beyond 60' & 100' deep, respectively? (Been awhile since my courses, so I don't know).

 

[Scott]

The names may have recently changed. However, you completely miss the point. PADI giving a cert called advanced open water with no requirement for more than a few assorted dives with the instructor and no actual skill development is totally a misnomer.

Changed recently for who, SDI? Not likely. The course names, and requirements, have been that way for some time.
I wasn't looking for a point. You simply provided incorrect information and I clarified with correct information.

 

[gcarter]

I remember reading about this when it happened, but didn't realize the guy was so inexperienced. Seriously ... taking a guy with a total of 14 dives ... particularly since those were spread out over a 5 year period ... to this particular dive site is just asking for something bad to happen. The dive shop recently closed its doors, which is a shame because I liked those people and they were in a very convenient place. But really ... you have to know when to say "no, you're not qualified for this dive site". And in this case, that should've been a very easy call to make ....

Family of diver who died at Race Rocks seeks inquiry into recreational industry

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Had not heard that they had closed... web site is still up?

 

[gcarter]

Interesting about what's expected when hiring a private (personal) guide (a.k.a. 'Dive Master' - a term often used when the hired subject may even have instructor credentials).

Is this person hired to be a guide, to handle navigation so the customer seems the 'best' of a site, and gets back to the boat without getting lost?

Is this person a technical consultant, to decide whether the customer should or shouldn't do the dive in light of observable weather, surface current, etc...? Or to voice an opinion on the matter?

Is the person a care taker, expected to closely monitor the customer, assess how he's conducting his dive (e.g.: check his gas pressure remaining & dive computer's NDL display periodically), and recognize and intervene in hazardous incidents (e.g.: extract him from kelp entanglement) to a degree significantly in excess of standard 'insta-buddy' capacity?

When I use a guide, I expect him to take me on a nice tour of the site, and act as a GPS so I can enjoy a calm dive without being burdened with navigation issues yet return to the boat in a timely fashion. And I've (finally) dove kelp (this past summer), but I haven't dove the conditions some of you have described, so my expectations may not matter here.

Any thoughts on what the 'industry standard' view would be, in that area, of what's expected with hiring a private guide there?

Richard.

P.S.:


How many fairly new divers are capable of knowing enough about a site & conditions relative to their ability to make such a competent determination, when their ability is so untested, and they've little frame of reference for judging what they're told? How much do OW and AOW mainstream courses teach about dive site condition assessment, beyond recommendations not to start out diving beyond 60' & 100' deep, respectively? (Been awhile since my courses, so I don't know).

My expectation of a DM guide is the same as yours.

 

[John Bantin]

It amazes me how often I see people abdicate responsibility for their own safety to others when conditions are patently too difficult. I've witnessed people get into trouble in strong currents even in the tropics because they expect swimming pool conditions always.

 

[FiddlerOnTheRoof]

I'm a NE diver and so not yet familiar with Race Rocks. But from what I was able to gather the diving conditions there are very similar to many of our dives here, perhaps minus the beautiful kelp forests. My question is... Why did the diver hire a DM?

He hired a dive master because he wanted someone local with "experience" who could show him around the dive site and did not have a dive buddy? If so, that is in my opinion a good reason to hire someone since you are diving an area you are unfamiliar with and having a dive buddy is always a good idea especially at his experience level.

He hired a DM because he wanted to dive this site (Race Rocks) and had little experience and confidence, so having a DM around not only showed him around but also made him feel secure that if something went wrong the DM would save him? I suspect that unfortunately this was the case! As a "non-practicing" instructor and DM I have seen this way too many times. In my opinion a diver with 14 dives has no experience. Much less for ocean diving.

This is one of the reasons I stopped teaching... The diving industry has made it too easy for everyone and anyone to get certified. It's all about the money! I started diving in the late 1980's. At the time the dive shop I did my certifications required a lot more than 14 dives just to qualify for the AOW certification. I remember having over 200 logged dives and many of the "in between" certifications like Rescue Diver, Specialty Diver, Dry Suite Diver, Equipment Specialist, to name a few, before starting my Dive Master training. By the time I started my assistant instructor training with SSI I was required to have a minimum of 400 logged dives. My instructor at the time took my log book and checked it in detail. My card lists "475 or more logged dives". I had over 1000 dives by the time I was finished with my Instructor Level.

I am not trying to show off my achievements... The reason I mention all of the above is because I get very upset this days when I see people getting hurt and killed only because they are in my opinion not prepared properly and in many cases rushed, yes RUSHED, through certifications without "paying their dues" and gaining proper experience before moving on to the next level. I HAVE SEEN THIS WITH MY OWN EYES! Just last year (2016) I witnessed a fellow diver go from OW to DM in one year!!!!! It's absurd!!! But when a dive shop needs to pay the bills and there are no apparent regulations against it.... Why not, right? WRONG!

So now this person is out already doing DM chores and helping with classes with less than 100 dives. What do you think?

I have now over 2500 dives, many of them solo dives... If I ever am blessed with a chance to dive Race Rocks even with my experience I will definitely be hiring a GOOD local DM to show me around. But only to show me around, not to rely on him for my own safety! I treat every dive as a SOLO DIVE but I also believe that you have to be very honest with yourself and listen to your gut instinct... Are you diving your limits? Are you really prepared technically, physically and mentally for this dive? Know your limitations!
Putting yourself at risk, puts others at risk!! Plan your dive, dive your plan.

You may not get a ticket for pushing your limits in diving, but you can certainly get a death certificate!

 

[drrich2]

He hired a DM because he wanted to dive this site (Race Rocks) and had little experience and confidence, so having a DM around not only showed him around but also made him feel secure that if something went wrong the DM would save him? I suspect that unfortunately this was the case!

How many times on this forum has someone recommended fairly new divers planning a Cozumel trip (drift diving albeit with the sites they're apt to take newbies more predictably benign conditions) hire a private DM? And people sometimes discuss this issue more independently of destination in the matter of hiring a private DM when their minor child is recently certified.

On the flip side of the coin, do people really want to discourage the practice of hiring a private DM when diving locations where the conditions might be pushing their comfort zone a bit? Do you think that's going to stop people from diving outside whatever for them is 'easy' diving? Or will it lead to a similar amount of 'iffy' diving but with less supervision? Bottom Line: if you discourage this, which way is the annual body count for scuba deaths worldwide apt to go? Up or down?

I don't think anybody is pushing the idea having a private guide makes deadly conditions safe (for the customer). But there are going to be shades of grey, where a proposed dive seems within reason but the added risk management 'hedge' of a known professional 'buddy' seems wise. I've seen people post of hiring a private DM to get a dependable buddy & avoid the risk of an inept instabuddy.

If I ever am blessed with a chance to dive Race Rocks even with my experience I will definitely be hiring a GOOD local DM to show me around. But only to show me around, not to rely on him for my own safety!

Ironically, the buddy diving model strongly endorsed for the large majority of divers seems founded on the idea that people should be able to 'count' on a buddy to some extent, that there is a need to have that safe guard in place for adequate risk management, and even in the SDI Solo Diver class it's evident there are dives one might attempt with a buddy that shouldn't be attempted solo. Hiring a private guide (such as a DM) seems to offer a more reliably higher-grade buddy.

Richard.

 

[FiddlerOnTheRoof]

@drrich2 my thought here is that to hire a DM to cover your lack of experience is wrong. It seems to me that perhaps the dive master also failed to see that perhaps this diver was way over his limits. I don't have a problem with hiring a dive master but you also need to be your own judge as to the level of the dive and if you are prepared for it. If you read my post carefully it was never my intention to discourage hiring a DM!

"Hiring a private guide (such as a DM) seems to offer a more reliably higher-grade buddy."
Sure, I agree. But one thing is hiring a DM to have a good diving buddy when you too are experienced enough to do such dive.

"hiring a private DM when their minor child is recently certified."
This person was an adult and a police officer! Risk management should not have been a strange concept to him.

"shades of grey"
There are always shades of grey... My opinion here basically is that if you are truly prepared to do a dive, then hiring a DM might be a good idea if you want to take advantage of the whole buddy system idea. But you also need to be prepared to save or assist your "dive master buddy" in case he/she needs. After-all accidents can happen even to the best divers! I don't think any diver with 14 dives is going to be able to do that or at least efficiently.

If you need to hire a DM because you still need to gain experience, then the DM and you, the student, need to pick a dive and conditions that are appropriate and offer a certain level of security to both.

Again this are just my thoughts and opinions and I understand some will not agree with me but my personal approach to my diving as worked for the last 2752 dives.