When are we gonna learn?

[Jerome O'Neil]

I'm sorry - but how can a diver with a total of 14 dives (9 of them checkout dives during courses) be considered AOW? That is such pure bushwah that it makes me want to puke.

Many years ago someone wrote up a list of cert cards you could collect without a single open water dive under your belt. I want to say you could enter PADI's DM program without any, but I wouldn't swear that is true. I'm almost certain you can get an AOW ticket without any.

Point is, certificates are really just a measure of how many checks you've written.

 

[boulderjohn]

Many years ago someone wrote up a list of cert cards you could collect without a single open water dive under your belt. I want to say you could enter PADI's DM program without any, but I wouldn't swear that is true. I'm almost certain you can get an AOW ticket without any.

Neither of the above is true.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Many years ago someone wrote up a list of cert cards you could collect without a single open water dive under your belt. I want to say you could enter PADI's DM program without any, but I wouldn't swear that is true. I'm almost certain you can get an AOW ticket without any.

You can get an AOW without having done any dives outside of the class checkout dives ... but those are open water dives. To get to AOW you will need to have done a minimum of four dives in your OW class, and five dives in your AOW class. That's with PADI. Other agencies offer similar criteria, but the number of dives may vary.

Point is, certificates are really just a measure of how many checks you've written.

Not true. Even in a badly run class you still have to cover a certain amount of subject matter, and be tested on your retention of that subject matter. You still have to spend a certain amount of time and effort covering skills in a pool, and again in open water. It may, depending on the instructor, not be very good or very adequate for the conditions in which you'll be diving, but every agency does provide a minimum criteria that must be followed if the certification is obtained legitimately.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[yle]

Point is, certificates are really just a measure of how many checks you've written.

This is kind of sad, Jerome, and I feel sorry for you. Essentially you're claiming that the time a student spends with an instructor has no value, that the instruction provided makes no difference in the student's ability and confidence in their diving.

Was your opinion derived from your own personal experience with your instructors? If so, I have great news for you: there are a lot of skilled and enthusiastic instructors in the industry that would be able to change your opinion. My personal experience, both as a student and an instructor, has been quite the opposite of yours.

 

[Jerome O'Neil]

You can get an AOW without having done any dives outside of the class checkout dives ... but those are open water dives. To get to AOW you will need to have done a minimum of four dives in your OW class, and five dives in your AOW class. That's with PADI. Other agencies offer similar criteria, but the number of dives may vary.

Well there ya go then. That is in line with what I remember. A quick look at the PADI website tells me I can complete "Rescue Diver" with no open water dives as well, and can enter "Master Diver" certification with 50 logged. It appears that this is the first cert where actual diving is actually required.

Not true. Even in a badly run class you still have to cover a certain amount of subject matter, and be tested on your retention of that subject matter. You still have to spend a certain amount of time and effort covering skills in a pool, and again in open water. It may, depending on the instructor, not be very good or very adequate for the conditions in which you'll be diving, but every agency does provide a minimum criteria that must be followed if the certification is obtained legitimately.

It is categorically true. You do not master diving in a pool. You master diving by going diving a lot. Given what we've just discussed, would you consider someone with 50 logged dives a "Master Diver," or trust someone without a single logged dive to "Rescue" you should there be a problem? Because so long as someone keeps writing checks, that's what the system can provide them.

Or would you rather dive with and trust the "Basic" diver that's been in the water a thousand times?

 

[Jerome O'Neil]

This is kind of sad, Jerome, and I feel sorry for you. Essentially you're claiming that the time a student spends with an instructor has no value, that the instruction provided makes no difference in the student's ability and confidence in their diving.

Absolutely. The time that person spends in the water after certification is the single best education they will receive.

Was your opinion derived from your own personal experience with your instructors? If so, I have great news for you: there are a lot of skilled and enthusiastic instructors in the industry that would be able to change your opinion. My personal experience, both as a student and an instructor, has been quite the opposite of yours.

I had an excellent instructor. When we were done with the class, he said "So now you're certified. Go learn to dive."

 

[Jerome O'Neil]

Neither of the above is true.

Evidently, one of them is.

 

[yle]

Because so long as someone keeps writing checks, that's what the system can provide them.

Good news for you, Jerome: no one writes checks anymore, for anything!

or trust someone without a single logged dive to "Rescue" you

But seriously... your definition of "logged dive" seems to require that only a dive that someone does on their own, without an instructor, can provide any worthwhile experience. You seem to think that just because an instructor is with a diver and the dive is done as part of a course, it can't provide any useful experience. But most agencies, as far as I know, want divers to log all of their dives, whether within the context of a class or not. Your definition of "logged dive" is different than the generally accepted industry definition.

If you got a basic certification and have done a lot of diving and it's worked for you, great. But it's very short-sighted of you to think that your way is the only reasonable way or that your way would be the best option for everyone. In fact, just the opposite is true: a lot of different people need a lot of different options to accomplish the same goal.

As for your question about who I would trust to rescue me... let me modify the scenario slightly: would I rather have someone that has had basic training and 1000 dives on their own, or a newly minted DM that has only 80 dives be in the position to rescue me? Hands down, I would take the newly minted DM for several reasons: they just had the relevant training, they made the decision to become a DM (which says a lot about their interest in performing the duties that come with), and at 80 dives they have as much diving skill as would be necessary to rescue me as someone with 1000 dives would (Note: I'm not arguing that someone with 80 dives has the same level of skills, in general, as someone with 1000 dives; I'm arguing that the level of skill necessary to assist me would not significantly improve between dive 80 and dive 1000.)

The fact is that someone who just has 1000 dives but no rescue training is really really good at basic diving skills. But that doesn't make them a competent rescuer of other divers. It's like the difference between someone that can sink 100 free throws in a row, versus someone who can actually play basketball.

And last... I'm sorry that you're angry about the availability of training beyond the basic course for divers that decide such training could be worthwhile. Some people probably agree with you that no such training should be available, but there are others that think the current system, while perhaps not perfect, does provide an overall benefit to the scuba industry.

 

[GlennL]

I am a new diver and I just thought I would add my perceptions of c-cards to the list. It seems that some of you think you know how new divers feel about the cards, but I will tell you what my perception is, as a new diver. My dive count is low, but since november I have taken OW, AOW/adventure diver, search and recovery, and nitrox. I am about to do my deep cert. Why do all the classes you may wonder? So that I can continue to train with a professional and have a professional point out my mistakes and aid in skill development. I am paying for instruction. Let me just say this clearly, AT NO POINT DO I THINK AN AOW CARD MAKES ME ADVANCED. Padi even clearly states that the class basically introduces you to different styles of diving. I happened to like the lift bag ops of the search and recovery so I went back to do some more. So if you are being simply introduced to different recreational aspects of diving you cannot expect that it will make you an advanced diver, merely that you have had additional professional diving supervision by an instructor. Just dont assume that every newbie thinks that by doing the AOW that they think they are advanced, because anyone who realizes what the class actually is would be very ignorant to think that it would make them an advanced diver. Dont get hung up on the word advanced. I realize my low dive count and limited experience. I also look at it like this, I have a drivers licence, but does that make me qualified to race an Indy car? No. It seems that there is a lot of flaming of programs, particularly PADI. There seems to be a desire to have them change their curriculum. Where is the push to have instructors be more demanding of the students? I have witnessed various instructors require different level of skill display for certain tasks. Where is the push for instructors to have more strict demonstration of skill rather than a casual acceptance of yeah well okay they did this or that, not very well, but they did it so ill pass them.
In regards to DM expectations I think that should be established beforehand. If the diver expects anything more than just a "guide" then they should convey that to the DM/dive op. I did. I told the dive op that I would like a DM because I was inexperienced and would like someone to keep an extra eye on me. I didnt want to get paired up with joe blow diver who may be as equally inexperienced . I conveyed this to the dive op, I told them my skill constraints, and expected them to provide a DM that could accommodate those restrictions. There is personal responsibility for adequately conveying your expectations and explaining why you feel that you need a DM. Do you just need a buddy? Do you want a local to point out all the cool stuff? Or do you want someone to keep an extra eye out for you? Those things should be conveyed to the dive op and I would expect them to provide me with a DM suitable for my particular needs. There is personal responsibility for the diver to convey WHY they need a DM.
Lastly, I just want to say that time does not equate to ability. You can do something a million times, but that doesnt mean you have done it right. As an example, I was diving with a couple a few weeks ago. I didnt have a buddy so I tagged along with them. They claimed that they logged 60 or 70 dives out in the Atlantic. But when I actually was in the water with them I thought to myself, wtf is up with these people. As it turns out they got certified and then proceeded to rent a boat and go out with one other friend all the time. They fed into each others bad habits and never had anyone point out mistakes or call them out. So dive count does not directly correlate to ones ability.
There are so many factors that you can not simply pinpoint one particular cause to be one hundred percent the culprit.

flame on.

 

[yle]

I am a new diver and I just thought I would add my perceptions of c-cards to the list. ... Why do all the classes you may wonder? So that I can continue to train with a professional and have a professional point out my mistakes and aid in skill development. I am paying for instruction. Let me just say this clearly, AT NO POINT DO I THINK AN AOW CARD MAKES ME ADVANCED.

Thanks for your input, Glenn. Jerome does have a point that diving as much as possible is the only way to hone your skills and develop confidence. Where he and I seem to disagree is in the added value in the early years that addition formal training can provide. And some people lose their minds, apparently, over the use of the word "advanced". They seem to equate the meaning of that word with "expert", so they rail over the idea that a relatively new diver can be labeled "advanced". The mistake is theirs, however, for misinterpreting the meaning of the word.

I'm with you 100%. Keep doing what you're doing.