What's with the UTD haters?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not all of us! I appreciate the rational critiques that have been made of the Z manifold, and I look forward to being able to try independent SM in the future so I can have a solid basis for comparison.

Related to this, I'm curious how many critics of the Z manifold have actually tried diving one? Experienced the ease of donning your tanks in the water without having to route hoses and plug BC and drysuit inflators? Tried single-tank rec sidemount with the Z? Tried surface supplied Zuba? (For the record, I hate that name.)

I feel like I dive the Z manifold with my eyes open to its shortcomings. That's been one of the great benefits of the dialogue we've been having, when it's been civil.

For me personally, the way I dive at the moment (mostly recreational), the pluses outweigh the minuses. In the future, who knows?

I guess the easiest way to illustrate what I was trying to say is that you and Kevrumbo are both products of exactly the same training ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gearhound]

Same for any UTD diver! Or any diver, period, for that matter.

I freely admit that I don't know enough about independent sidemount to critique it relative to the Z System. I hope to try it someday, if I can find a good instructor here in SoCal who teaches it. Unfortunately, all the tech instructors I'm aware of down here either stick to GUE and backmount, or use a UTD Z System for sidemount. (Availability of local training is one of the big reasons I chose the Z as my sidemount rig.)


Maybe that's a good excuse for me to make a trip to Florida or the Indo-Pacific?

Or head down to Mexico. I'll recommend Patrick at Protec. He's detailed and tough! And he's willing to teach someone with the Z system. Plus, even though he can teach everything tec and cave, he just spent some time in Florida with JJ going over GUE training. So he's open minded (even though he designed the Stealth).

More importantly, now that we're back on track, I think it's awesome that we have followers of GUE and UTD, as well as other followers of DIR, having a discussion in a Sidemount Forum. It shows how far sidemount has progressed. We can see it in our shop. Although we still sell a lot of singles BP/W, there's been only one purchase of a doubles wing for backmount over the past year. The Stealths, on the other hand, are our biggest seller. Even our boss, who is a GUE/Halcyon proponent, is diving sidemount now. And yes, we have a UTD manifold system in our shop. The boss bought it thinking that I would want it, but it just doesn't mesh with the diving I aspire to do. I studied up on it though, before I formulated my opinion.

---------- Post added February 14th, 2014 at 12:50 PM ----------

I hope that this doesn't come off like Kev posting his gas bill, but here is a video of us in our Advanced Cave Sidemount course with Patrick. You will see a Stealth, two UTD Z trim wings, and a Hollis SMS50. We all use the Stealth now. The Z wing and the Hollis (which is just a copy of the Z wing) get hooked up in this environment. The air congregates at the top of the wing (because my shoulder blades are higher than the small of my back, and air goes up to the highest point in the water) and you cannot vent it once you're in a restriction. At the 1:00 mark you'll see me trying to get the Z wing unstuck as I'm trying to get through a restriction (granted, I was blindfolded at the time).

Aqua Sport Mofo - Advanced Sidemount Diving - YouTube

I'm not trying to be show off, just saying that I've spent time in the system before coming to a conclusion. And you can see why I wouldn't want to take a manifold into this environment.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

I hope that this doesn't come off like Kev posting his gas bill, but here is a video of us in our Advanced Cave Sidemount course with Patrick. You will see a Stealth, two UTD Z trim wings, and a Hollis SMS50. We all use the Stealth now. The Z wing and the Hollis (which is just a copy of the Z wing) get hooked up in this environment. The air congregates at the top of the wing (because my shoulder blades are higher than the small of my back, and air goes up to the highest point in the water) and you cannot vent it once you're in a restriction. At the 1:00 mark you'll see me trying to get the Z wing unstuck as I'm trying to get through a restriction (granted, I was blindfolded at the time).

Nice! Although it looks like you might be using the "plus" version of the Z trim, which has some shortcomings that go with its larger size. With wetsuit, AL tanks, and that very tight cave, you would probably have had better luck with the normal sized Z trim device, which only covers your lumbar.

 

[rjack321]

I would not want to take a Z manifold into the overhead environments I am diving in because:

1) most of my SM dives are solo, so I have no need to donate to anyone anyway. I do have a long hose but only because I actually like wrapping my right tank's reg behind my neck and I don't like the alternative which requires elbows on the right 2nd stage.
2) I do not want to have QDs on my breathing gases. Some of my SM dives require dry crawling 50m+ of cave in a very tight passage - 6ft wide but only ~14" high. I can wear my current SM BC in there and put the tanks and regs together at the water. If I wore Z system manifold with QDs those QDs would become clogged with mud. I don't want that on my breathing gases.

I'm sure its fine for screwing around with recreationally in open water (I said so in my first post of this thread). The system is not designed nor suitable for serious caving or SM cave diving - period. So no I have not tried it.

 

[gearhound]

Nice! Although it looks like you might be using the "plus" version of the Z trim, which has some shortcomings that go with its larger size. With wetsuit, AL tanks, and that very tight cave, you would probably have had better luck with the normal sized Z trim device, which only covers your lumbar.

No, it was the normal size z-trim. I'm an early adopter, so I got one as soon as they came out. It was the first wing UTD came out with. I had it mounted low, because I like my waist strap low on my hips. Of course. I made some adjustments to suit my style of diving. It may be my oriental physique that makes it look high on me

 

[rjack321]

Compared the Z system stuff with the big Hs release of a sidemount rig a couple months ago. Barely a ripple. Why? Because it was designed by someone who obviously sidemounts and has for many years! It helps that non-sidemounters at Halcyon aren't selling it hard as the solution to all of conventional sidemount's weaknesses.

The only "complaint" I have heard about the H Contour is that its really expensive.

 

[TSandM]

I played with the Z-system in a pool here in Seattle. I did not like diving single tank sidemount, because I was off balance. I was very comfortable in the setup with double tanks, and it is certainly extremely easy to dive, because it doesn't really behave differently from what I'm used to in a lot of ways. But I really, really didn't like the loss of redundancy, and I do not think I'm a good enough diver to disconnect a QC and get into my pocket to find another second stage before I've run out of time or composure when looking for gas. And I didn't see a REASON for it.

I am a dyed-in-the-wool GUE diver. I love the world I dive in and the people I dive with. And I think GUE has it right when they reserve "non-standard" configurations for the dives that require them, and for the people who are sufficiently experienced and trained to do those dives.

I love the emphasis that UTD has on good buoyancy, trim, situational awareness, etc. Our Seattle UTD instructors (who don't mess with the sidemount or CCR parts of it) are fantastic, and I would recommend them wholeheartedly to anyone who wanted good training -- and I have. The UTD divers in our area are good divers and fun to dive with.

I think AG had a vision -- I have worked with him, and he is a thinker and a visionary and an extraordinary diver -- of creating a world where everyone could dive together without changing procedures or protocols at all. I applaud his intentions, but in my own (and definitely less experienced and probably less valid) opinion, it isn't the goal we should be trying to reach.

 

[DevonDiver]

I'm a fan of the Z-Trim. The sidemount rig I currently favor for rec/lite-deco is a very close (locally made) copy. It's perfect for tropical water dives - miles ahead of competitors like the SMS50.

 

[rjack321]

I'm a fan of the Z-Trim. The sidemount rig I currently favor for rec/lite-deco is a very close (locally made) copy. It's perfect for tropical water dives - miles ahead of competitors like the SMS50.

The UTD wings (in general) seem nice. Way better than the Razor wing which is like a giant balloon on your butt.

 

[Jeproks]

I think that those with a sense of superiority and egotism go beyond an Agency. Throughout my UTD classes, whether they be my classes or those that I teach, the first thing we promote is being inclusive. That's something that all UTD instructors are taught to ingrain in our students. Honestly speaking, people who come out as arrogant and elitist are totally missing the point of it all and are most likely not a product of not any agency but a personality type waiting to come out.

Perhaps one thing that has to be said is that UTD is both an equipment manufacturer and a training agency. I don't pretend our kind of side-mount is the end all be all of side-mount, it just suits our training and our philosophy of the unified thinking team, again based on our principles. That's not to say other side-mount configurations are inferior or superior, they are just different. I have many good friends who do independent side-mount, but I'm happy with my QC6s. I've also built the necessary skill and awareness to use it for open water recreational, technical and overheads.

Thanks to SanDiegoSidemount for starting this thread as when sensible conversations are made, much can be learned.