What's the hardest class you have taken, and what made it hard?

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You and I have talked past each other on this point to a degree, but there is also a completely different stance on what counts as 'having been learned' in terms of diving.

It simply does not matter (to me) if someone can repeat any scientific knowledge of any kind about diving. It's in the course, and we test for that, but that is basically bookkeeping. In fact, it only matters if, in practice, the rule of behavior involved is followed in practice. The only place where learning about gas expansion matters is in the water, because that is the only point at which there are consequences to the facts.

You may say it is learned somewhere else.

I will still insist that saying someone has 'learned' it simply is immaterial outside the water, since many people who have 'learned' this, still hold their breath the first time they take the regulator out of their mouth, some still fail to watch their ascent rates. You say they have learned it on land. I say (and say always) land experience and knowledge, and lecture and briefings, etc. don't count for anything except to the degree to which they result in correct water behavior. You miss my main point: Lecture and briefings may well help some students. But there are a lot of instructors who pour focus into lectures and briefs who long ago simply stopped focusing on the details in the water, which is the only point at which being an instructor matters at all.
There are all manner of critical things that are leaned in lecture and other talking situations. To name a few: decompression theory and calculations, ""reading" a beach by watching the break, gas management, alternate breathing gas uses and calculations, dangerous marine animals and treatment for such injuries, equipment repair and troubleshooting, etc., etc., etc.
If the above were not true not we could all get cave certified by reading good books, because that would mean that learning outside of the water counts for something. You say it does, I say it doesn't. It is an necessary evil, but nothing 'learned' above water counts until it is demonstrably put into practice in the water.
I say that there are some few naturals who have the skills and background to read a book and preform well above the level of "full cave." Could "all" do that, no, but the same is true, only more so, for entry level, there are a fair number who could be handed a book in the morning and dive quite competently in the afternoon ... but there are also those who will never learn, no matter the quality of instruction and duration of training, because they are just not suited to it, e.g., they lack the prerequisites.
This goes similarly (with a different emphasis) in the discussions about the complicated exercises of a rescue class. If exercises are being repeated with mistakes when they are put into practice, how can they be said to have been learned before the point at which they are done (repeatably) without mistakes? Doing something once without mistakes might just be an accident. Doing it every time without mistakes is the only point at which something can be counted as having been learned, because the correct behavior is actually being (repeatably) demonstrated. Diving is a physical activity. And a statement about having learned something can only be justifiably asserted when it is repeatably shown to be part of an established behavior. Previous to that point it might just be accidental coincidence of circumstances. An instructor who lets one repitition count as proof something having been learned is missing that fact.
You are falling into the scholastic trap of assuming that there is a mind/body dichotomy. Let me tell you about an experimeent, that unfortunately I have lost the reference for: two groups of children who had never played basketball where taught to shoot layups. Then one group was given a hour a day to practice, with coaching, shooting layups. The second group was placed in comfy chairs in a darkened room while a coach talked them through the mechanics of shooting a layup with perfect form. The second group was encouraged to image themselves shooting layups with perfect form. After two week the two groups were tested and scored both on form and on the percentage of scoring layups that they shot. Guess what? The "imagers" did better, both in form and in the number of made baskets. So don't be so sure that you've got the, "one best answer." When I have had especially difficult and intricate tasks that had to be done quickly, at depths that induced significant narcosis, I'd first do the task in a pool or shallow water and then I'd visualize doing the task, over and over and over again. In fact, just before I'd enter the water, I'd visualize it one last time. Often, even with the stress of the dive, the dark, the depth and the narc, I'd successfully complete the task more rapidly that I ever did in the pool or in shallow water. So ... where did I learn to do the task? Where did the basketball visualizers learn to shoot the layups?
It is simply a fact that most divers admire the instructor of the course they consider the 'hardest' as having been the best instructor, because those divers see the chasm between their own poor performance and the instructors effortless performance. Despite a demonstrated gap in the rescue class organization (being made to do full exercises before the correct patterns were fully ingrained into muscle memory) , you still refers to that instructor as admirable. Why were mistakes made?
Again I wonder about your sample. My goal with students is to reduce the "chasm" between my students' performance and my ability to virtually nothing, and I am often able to do just that. I can't give them the years of experience, they have to do that on their own, but I work very hard to have them starting off standing on my shoulders, not trailing in my wake.
As I said, the fault being made the students, not the instructor's. I am not saying that the instructor was a bad person. I am saying that the example you gave is a pretty good example of 'less than perfect' organization and 'less than perfect' attention to detail on the part of the instructor.

Everyone makes mistakes. My point is that with more attention put on things outside of the water, an instructor who fails to notice that "I was dwelling on some things, and forgot to do other things", is more likely to have spent up his error free performance quota out of the water.

Nothing matters but the students performance in the water, and any instructor, providing they are laserfocsing their attention the student, will notice these problems.
Lots of things besides the students' performance in the water matter, and I submit that until you understand that you will be stalled in your development as an instructor. Teaching is a holistic undertaking and requires that that you get all the bang for the buck that you can out of lectures, recitation sessions, confined water teaching, confined water practice sessions and open water teaching and practice sessions. I recommend that you turn that laser on to your lectures if they are not yielding the results that you think they should be rather than criticize instructors who are able to use that time to excellent effect.
 
Let me tell you about an experimeent, that unfortunately I have lost the reference for: two groups of children who had never played basketball where taught to shoot layups. Then one group was given a hour a day to practice, with coaching, shooting layups. The second group was placed in comfy chairs in a darkened room while a coach talked them through the mechanics of shooting a layup with perfect form. The second group was encouraged to image themselves shooting layups with perfect form. After two week the two groups were tested and scored both on form and on the percentage of scoring layups that they shot. Guess what? The "imagers" did better, both in form and in the number of made baskets.

It's not particularly relevant to the discussion, most importantly because lectures done by dive instructors are not image training done by research psychologists. (That's kind at the basis of my whole point about instructors becoming 'gassy'. Becoming an instructor is simply a license to evaluate in water behavior, and to present information that supports that, but many instructors take it as license to develop thoughts about a whole range of other activities like lectures, and work done by professional research psychologists, and tend to forget what they were licensed to do: develop and evaluate in-water behavior. A student with a hiccup in their training is only helped by the hiccup being solved.)

Moreover the experiments were not done with people who had no experience with the activity, but those who had experience with the activity.

A good overview of the studies to date:

Mental Imagery

Conclusion:
After reading through numerous studies, visual imagery seems somewhat promising and beneficial. Although it is not as beneficial as physical practice, visual imagery fairs better than no practice at all.

All the subjects in the various studeies were doing activity which they had already done successfully before. There is no way to even imagine successful performance of an completely novel activity, the imagination simply makes up random aspects of it that would confuse what the activity actually consists of. Once the activity had been performed successfully, of course, image training works better than no practice at all.

Before there is experience of a novel behavior, image training for the behavior is an empty exercise. Diving is particularly novel, so it is particularly unsuited to image training before the activity has been done successfully. The entire reason that buoyancy is so hard is because no one other than astronauts and fish have any experience with it. I too can spend weeks talking about it..

Lots of things besides the students' performance in the water matter, and I submit that until you understand that you will be stalled in your development as an instructor.

I would be perfectly happen to have all instructor's development as diving instructors stalled at the point at which we consider only the student's performance in the water as the measure of an instructor's achievement. That is, in fact, my whole point: Water matters, and the other things matter only in as much as they build a foundation for in water behavior.

(Putting aside the gas and deco planning for mission specific dives, which are just a separate issue, since they are taught, performed and evaluated completely outside the water. Plus, there is nothing new or different about doing math or writing stuff down. We do not teach people how to add numbers or form letters. They have to already know that.)
 
It's not particularly relevant to the discussion, most importantly because lectures done by dive instructors are not image training done by research psychologists. (That's kind at the basis of my whole point about instructors becoming 'gassy'. Becoming an instructor is simply a license to evaluate in water behavior, and to present information that supports that, but many instructors take it as license to develop thoughts about a whole range of other activities like lectures, and work done by professional research psychologists, and tend to forget what they were licensed to do: develop and evaluate in-water behavior. A student with a hiccup in their training is only helped by the hiccup being solved.)
Perhaps you and I observe different instructor populations, because it is either that or one of us is nuts, and I don't think it's me. I really wonder where these "many instructors" that you observe are trained and work.
Moreover the experiments were not done with people who had no experience with the activity, but those who had experience with the activity.

A good overview of the studies to date:

Mental Imagery

Conclusion:


All the subjects in the various studeies were doing activity which they had already done successfully before. There is no way to even imagine successful performance of an completely novel activity, the imagination simply makes up random aspects of it that would confuse what the activity actually consists of. Once the activity had been performed successfully, of course, image training works better than no practice at all.

Before there is experience of a novel behavior, image training for the behavior is an empty exercise. Diving is particularly novel, so it is particularly unsuited to image training before the activity has been done successfully. The entire reason that buoyancy is so hard is because no one other than astronauts and fish have any experience with it. I too can spend weeks talking about it..
Buoyancy is so hard because there has been along standing and wrong headed tradition of teaching students while they knelt on the bottom. Fix that and it becomes easy. There are a few us on the board here who have spent time in the NASA Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory so I suggest that you stick to what you know and not invoke programs you know nothing about and have not participated in.
I would be perfectly happen to have all instructor's development as diving instructors stalled at the point at which we consider only the student's performance in the water as the measure of an instructor's achievement. That is, in fact, my whole point: Water matters, and the other things matter only in as much as they build a foundation for in water behavior.
To train an effective diver requires a multitude of skills and abilities, some are water only skills, some are air only book knowledge and some combine elements of both. An instuctor who is only capable of handling the in-water portion of a class would be rather useless to me.
(Putting aside the gas and deco planning for mission specific dives, which are just a separate issue, since they are taught, performed and evaluated completely outside the water. Plus, there is nothing new or different about doing math or writing stuff down. We do not teach people how to add numbers or form letters. They have to already know that.)
Taught, performed and evaluated completely outside of the water? Form letters and numbers? I don't where and how you dive, or how you plan, but I do not find what you are saying to be true. If what you are saying is the case, why do they make waterproof tables and such that fit in a pocket?
 
There are a few us on the board here who have spent time in the NASA Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory so I suggest that you stick to what you know and not invoke programs you know nothing about and have not participated in.

Thus the point about instructors overreaching what their instructor cards show. An instructor might well have invented the aqualung itself, for that matter. It is immaterial to the student, who only gets the care shown them. And instructor qualifications have little to do with how students turn out, because the only measure of how a student turns out in diving 'education' is how the student turns out in the water.

The education is for the student, and not for the instructor. The focus should only be on the students behavior in the water. Always and only, ever, and at any point in the class. Long lectures tend to confuse instructors about where the focus should be, because they get used to it being on themselves while they prattle on, and then the course stops being about the student....And then the instructors do not notice that a student is having trouble with the steps of rescue breathing, or having trouble with buoyancy because the exposure suit is auto-dumping, or trouble reaching the valves because the exposure suit is restricting movement. There is a cause and effect, as scholastic as it might seem. Instructors who think that their office is the water takes that job seriously, and those who think that what they say is their office take that job seriously

Thus, 'hard' classes are born, because the instructor cranks up the lecture volume, and misses the point of the class: the student. (And classes, instructors, and agencies get congratulations for failing to teach students.)

As mentioned in the original thread in the I2I forum that brought about this thread, there is a tendency for anyone who puts effort into what they do to invest it with meaning, because that's generally how we humans work. As admirable as it is for a staunch existentialist viewpoint, it usually results in investing importance into our own actions because those are what we control, thus we extend lectures and briefing because we can do so.

But a more thorough existentialist stance would be in the utterly insecure position of investing importance only into the actions of our students, who we only influence and do not control. But we can only do that by releasing our ego from the work, except inasmuch as the student is reflects the work. Perhaps this is too much to ask for many people.

Divers can teach themselves to dive, without us. You live in Hawaii, so you know there are plenty of shops who fill tanks for people who never went to a dive class who dive for a living, and do so safely for many years. What does that say about what we do?
 
Currently doing my rescue diver course which is the "hardest" in terms of being the most challenging. Within boundaries I enjoy being challenged and I always ask my dive instructors not to go easy on me. By being challenged and making mistakes I feel I will learn the most.
Had my 2nd rescue diver class on Saturday and really appreciated the challenges my instructor presented to me. Especially the ones that weren't discussed during the pre-dive briefing which made it more authentic and presented the opportunity to think and act on the spot. Of course I made some mistakes but I always discuss those in great detail after any dive.
Overall, it is the most rewarding and enjoyable course I've taken so far (done OW, AOW and about 8 specialties) because the learning curve is so steep.
 
Prob my Rescue class as my Instructor really pushed us over and over again... It was physically hard but looking back on it after it was well worth it as its something I've had to do twice already and both time I reacted instinctivly and without panic to help my guests and isn't that why we do it originally? :)

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk
 
Thus the point about instructors overreaching what their instructor cards show. An instructor might well have invented the aqualung itself, for that matter. It is immaterial to the student, who only gets the care shown them. And instructor qualifications have little to do with how students turn out, because the only measure of how a student turns out in diving 'education' is how the student turns out in the water.

The education is for the student, and not for the instructor. The focus should only be on the students behavior in the water. Always and only, ever, and at any point in the class. Long lectures tend to confuse instructors about where the focus should be, because they get used to it being on themselves while they prattle on, and then the course stops being about the student....And then the instructors do not notice that a student is having trouble with the steps of rescue breathing, or having trouble with buoyancy because the exposure suit is auto-dumping, or trouble reaching the valves because the exposure suit is restricting movement. There is a cause and effect, as scholastic as it might seem. Instructors who think that their office is the water takes that job seriously, and those who think that what they say is their office take that job seriously

Thus, 'hard' classes are born, because the instructor cranks up the lecture volume, and misses the point of the class: the student. (And classes, instructors, and agencies get congratulations for failing to teach students.)

As mentioned in the original thread in the I2I forum that brought about this thread, there is a tendency for anyone who puts effort into what they do to invest it with meaning, because that's generally how we humans work. As admirable as it is for a staunch existentialist viewpoint, it usually results in investing importance into our own actions because those are what we control, thus we extend lectures and briefing because we can do so.

But a more thorough existentialist stance would be in the utterly insecure position of investing importance only into the actions of our students, who we only influence and do not control. But we can only do that by releasing our ego from the work, except inasmuch as the student is reflects the work. Perhaps this is too much to ask for many people.

Divers can teach themselves to dive, without us. You live in Hawaii, so you know there are plenty of shops who fill tanks for people who never went to a dive class who dive for a living, and do so safely for many years. What does that say about what we do?

As much as it is entertaining to watch you and Thal exchanging your "pleasantries".....the real issue the OP was going for was more about the material in the class, than whether the instructor was an empathic genius, or "not so good". :)

Each of us took OW..most of us took many other classes as well. I think the issue we need to address is how many drastically new skills do you pick up in the class ( plus important new knowledge critical to your diving), AND in comparing all classes taken, which ones packed so much of this in -- that it became more like a huge challenge to complete the class successfully, than just a few minor tweaks and some minor new knowledge--which is what MOST major agency classes are like, due to the nature of the "Modular" Learning systems widely utilized today.
 
As much as it is entertaining to watch you and Thal exchanging your "pleasantries".....the real issue the OP was going for was more about the material in the class, than whether the instructor was an empathic genius, or "not so good". :)

Actually, although I have thoroughly enjoyed what I think has been a good discussion of educational approaches, what I was trying to get from the original post was whether classes were hard because the material or skills were hard, because there was a mismatch of quantity of material and time allowed to master it, because the instruction wasn't helpful, because the days were long or the physical demands of the class were high, or for other reasons. I was trying to learn something that I could use in assisting (or perhaps eventually instructing) that would help me or Peter teach in a way that we could impart the information we want and not have the student view the class as overly "hard". I think there have actually been a lot of good comments from folks here about why they viewed their "hard" classes as being such, and physical demands and lack of help with the "how" have been two prominent themes.
 
For sure, Tech 1 was the most difficult time I've had in training. The biggest issue was that our team had mediocre fundamental skills by GUE standards. We had been practising for some time and thought we were where we needed to be - this was very obviously not accurate. I thought the instructor (Bob Sherwood) had an excellent teaching style and no doubt was frustrated when we did not progress as we needed to in order to finish the course. Despite not passing that course, I'd recommend him as an instructor in a heartbeat. We needed to be much more critical of each other's skills prior to the course. The task loading did us in when we needed to divert attention from basic skills.
 
So, John, in your case, would you say the prerequisites were inadequate or unclear?
 
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