What would you do?

[RJP]

Very true.......hope to catch up with you on the boats this season.....

You know where to find me...

A further aside on "training" vs "real-world" scenarios, here's what happened to the guy I was buddied with during a recent tech class:

We were at 60' and in the process of shooting bags and ascending to our first stop depth of 30' per the dive plan. My bag was all the way up and my buddy had just released his when his bungied alternate reg began to free flow.

Of course this was dive 7 of this class, so we were both quite used to one of our instructors simulating a free-flow or burst disk failure - or any of a dozen other "spontaneous" problems on every dive - when you least expect it. However, instead of simply solving the problem, I could see my buddy's eyes dart to the two instructors who were IN FRONT OF US at the time. And then for what seemed like an eternity he just stared straight ahead, and I could tell he was thinking "who's simulating the free flow"? He then began to helicopter turn 180deg left and 180deg right to look for the perpetrator. When he couldn't see anyone he broke horizontal trim and rotated 360deg left, then 720deg. Then rotated 360deg right. Still couldn't find the perpetrator who was "simulating" his freeflow, which was still continuing unabated.

However what he did manage to do in all his gyrations was completely wrap his liftbag line around himself including a rather intricate sort of "cat's cradle" thing going on with his tank valves. Of course his buoyancy control went to hell through all this, but that didn't matter because he was now tied to an ascending liftbag. I had my Z-knife out when he was shooting his bag, but couldn't cut his line because he rotated away from me in his search of the free-flow simulator, and then was so quickly above me. However, to make matters worse, in his turning gyrations he managed to wrap his liftbag line around mine, so I was being pulled up too.^*

In about 30 seconds or so we were both on the surface. His alternate reg STILL free-flowing. I calm him down - which wasn't easy - got him untangled, and we began to follow the proper "blown stop" procedure of descending to the missed stop depth, recalculating deco schedule, etc. (At this point I'm figuring worse case scenario I'll pass the dive by handling this "surprise" correctly.)

All this because this guy couldn't figure out who was "simulating" his free-flow. It never, ever, through any of this, occurred to him that he had an ACTUAL free flow, and that the solution to an actual free flow was the same as the solution to a SIMULATED free-flow. Situational awareness is the key, and yeah it was a training dive, but the solution should be reflexive. For this guy it wasn't.

Fortunately for both of us this was a "simulated" deco dive. In terms of actual time and depth we were only 25min into a dive where we were never deeper than 90' (for only 10min) and were breathing the richest mix possible at each depth, and were still well within NDL limits for a recreational dive. However, it's easy to imagine that this could have just as easily happened 75min into dive 12 of the course which would have been a deco dive to 150.'

 

[beanojones]

In some countries (like Israel) "Air2" alone are not allowed - you must have an octopus.

Is this true?

 

[RAWalker]

About using the long hose....if it's my regular buddy and he doesn't seem to be panicking, I don't feel any need to get in close, get vertical, and hold his harness. The rare times that I've practiced air sharing in a close environment (for example, with a standard length hose and octo or AIR2) I actually felt much more anxious...with my personal space invaded and with no room to move, I felt out of control, and it was much harder to control my own buoyancy.

With a "team" that practices emergency drills together, an OOA emergency (whether from a roll off, freeflow, or other equipment malfunction) should only be an annoying inconvenience.

While using a long hose to create some distance between two divers goes against some agencies' formal training practices, in GUE training, it's actually discouraged to make contact with the OOA diver unless they are showing signs of panic or distress. Getting that up close and physical with someone can actually create more stress.

So, just because it isn't taught by the formal training agencies that you're familiar with, doesn't mean that it's not a perfectly valid and reasonable practice

OK, back to topic

That is all well and good if you only dive with others that are likewise trained and know what to expect. The fact is unless you limit yourself to diving with those you mention. You are probably going to come across more people who have not been trained to expect the distance, may not have a long hose and would be better served by adhereing to standard OW training practices.
Also I have 1 question: Does GUE even allow for Air 2 style octos?

 

[Surelyshirly]

I think we all assume, and this is basically the problem, that dive masters, instructors and divers with years of experience or hundreds of dives are not prone to human moments of imperfection.

dont assume that just because who you are diving with fits in these or any other categories they will always react in text book training style. And dont assume, if you fit any of these categories, that you will always be in control, even if you were at some time and/or incident/s before.

and keep in mind that your perception of a situation as it is happening can be quite different than the reality of it. Having knowlege to put into effect in an emergency is MOST important, but not a guarantee that you will be able to do it in every incident.

Not every free flow or anything else is an emergency, but the one time it is you are using just seconds from depth to surface and you want to go through a list of 15 possible items to accomplish to prevent a rapid ascent. You just do as many as you can in that short amount of time. Shoulda , woulda, coulda doesnt change things. deal with what you have at the moment.

 

[bamamedic]

That is all well and good if you only dive with others that are likewise trained and know what to expect. The fact is unless you limit yourself to diving with those you mention. You are probably going to come across more people who have not been trained to expect the distance, may not have a long hose and would be better served by adhereing to standard OW training practices.
Also I have 1 question: Does GUE even allow for Air 2 style octos?

Nope...it wasn't me that had one. When I dive with an "instabuddy", I always try to perform a few skills with them at about 15-20 feet. This particular "instabuddy" had a standard OW configuration, with an AIR2.

I just don't feel comfortable diving into the water, with someone I've never met before in my life, have never practiced safety skills with, and don't even know if they remember what to do in case of emergencies.

And when I do dive with a diver that I've never dove with before, who has a standard OW configuration, and doesn't dive with a "team" mentality, I try to have one of my regular (and more experienced) buddies there...that way, I still have a buddy!

 

[bamamedic]

I think we all assume, and this is basically the problem, that dive masters, instructors and divers with years of experience or hundreds of dives are not prone to human moments of imperfection.

dont assume that just because who you are diving with fits in these or any other categories they will always react in text book training style. And dont assume, if you fit any of these categories, that you will always be in control, even if you were at some time and/or incident/s before.

and keep in mind that your perception of a situation as it is happening can be quite different than the reality of it. Having knowlege to put into effect in an emergency is MOST important, but not a guarantee that you will be able to do it in every incident.

Not every free flow or anything else is an emergency, but the one time it is you are using just seconds from depth to surface and you want to go through a list of 15 possible items to accomplish to prevent a rapid ascent. You just do as many as you can in that short amount of time. Shoulda , woulda, coulda doesnt change things. deal with what you have at the moment.

You bring up a very good point...it's the perception that counts, because that's what you base your reaction on.

I've had patients who, for me appeared to be having a minor emergency (fender-bender MVA, slip-and-fall on a wet sidewalk, etc), but to them, it was the end of the world!

 

[RJP]

I had more than enough lift for the both of us, bc and drysuit. Heres a problem. Slashing a knife around a panic diver, while trying to deflate and hold him. I have but one hand available. By the time I realize whats happening it is over!

In many respects you're lucky to have had this happen to you early on in your dive career. A relatively benign problem that ended well really helps to underscore how quickly the wheels CAN come off, and having this knowledge firsthand will make you a much more circumspect diver than merely reading about it happening to someone else.

Your instinct on the knife is correct as well. A knife has no utility in this situation. Pulling it out won't help, and in this context at best would have served to distract you from the task at hand. Worse case could add an additional problem. Hell, imagine the panic in your buddy's eyes if he thought you were going to "cut him loose."

 

[diver 85]

Seems like you didn't try 'everything' cuz otherwise you wouldn't be in this situation-----What did ya'll do, loose your weights-----somewhere on the bottom???....

 

[msg]

Grab the dump valves on the BC. If you hold it open, the air in the BC will leave. Spread out in the water column to increase drag. If you are on an up line, hold fast to secure your position until you can neutralize your buoyancy.

 

[imasinker]

Seems like you didn't try 'everything' cuz otherwise you wouldn't be in this situation-----What did ya'll do, loose your weights-----somewhere on the bottom???....

Did you read the posts?...... go back and read my final post on what happened, I am certain by the way your post reads this could never happen to you?