What would you do?

[firstdive2005]

Thank you!

We were 5 minutes into the first dive of the day at 80 feet. Hovering over the deck I hear a sound to my right and see my buddy engulfed in bubbles. I have never experienced this before, I have only been diving three months.

Here's what I did.

Buddy went free flow.
I reached out to him pulled him close to me as he was grabbing at my octo.
He had one hand holding his free flow octo one hand grabbing at my octo.
He grabbed my octo and began to breath.
Not being able to see anything because of the bubbles I moved the free flow octo to his side and cleared the view to see his face.
I signal ok he signals ok
He signals up, I replied ok
I noted the time and depth, held him in one hand, lifted and vented my inflator
I looked up making sure we were not under anyone or anything.
I fin upwards slow and looked at my computer on my wrist noted our depth was aproaching 70 feet.
I looked at him, looked up and felt we were moving to fast.
I looked at him and didn't notice anything strange, emptied my bcd, we were now really moving fast
I feel the air move in my drysuit, I put my hand up under my hood, pulled my neck seal to vent off air from my drysuit and got soaked in the process
I seen the bright sun light felt the temperature change and new we were about to surface.
looked at him and we popped up at the surface.

My computer had three warnings, and logged the ascent time as 24 seconds from 80 feet.

With all do respect, my dive buddy reads this forum, and I am sure he knows what happened. He is a good guy that just got caught in a bad situation. It wasn't untill a few weeks later I realized what happened. I remember looking at my dive buddy who was holding my octo and holding me. Being it happened so fast it seems he didn't deflate is bcd, dump his air and we are both wearing drysuits. I was too busy trying to figure out what to do at this time. I remembered what I had to do, but it went so fast. The reason I asked the question was to see the input from divers, new and not new. It is easy to say now what I should have done. This goes to experiene for me. I was wondering how many people would have said, I would let him go. I was asked that a few tmes. This was a situation I faced, and could have done many things different. This was why I posted the http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/general-scuba-equipment-discussions/263742-air2-octo-inflators.html. I was wondering what could be done in that situation with that type of octo, to find other helpfull resources to help understand and hopefull prevent something like this from happening again. Next time I may not be so lucky but you can see I have learned something. We went to the hospital, we were fine, total 8 minutes and being the first dive we didn't suffer any complications.

Please remember I was a brand new diver, it may not sound so serious to those experience but to me it was.

Have any of you any simular situations you can reflect and talk about. How did the experience change you?

Good report!

 

[beanojones]

If WE can't bring the ascent under control, then WE are going to the surface.

This is classic. Well said.

 

[Surelyshirly]

having been in the same situation, and having analyzed it over and over again becuase it bothered me so much, i can tell you this.

Lynne is correct. There is not time to correct anything when you are less than 15 seconds to the surface. flare your heart out, I truly hope it helps but I surely didnt feel as if I was slowing down.

ull and twist away. It is not always enough time even though this was another diver my same size.

My "buddy" was a divemaster and our dive was 85 fsw. Her second stage blew off of her tank ... all I heard was what sounded like a bomb going off and what I saw was a mass of bubbles. I went to her with my octo out and not being able to see anything but bubbles. I never saw anything again until we surfaced. We were surrounded in bubbles being blown at us with the force of the HP tank

She grabbed my harness and bear hugged me and we were on our way to the surface. In record time. Panic makes people very strong and very quick. what you consider to be a non life threatening issue.....after all, here I was, in seconds, offering more than enough air for us to calmly deal with the situation and swim up and make our saftey stop and get onboard.... it does not necessarily seem that way in the other persons mind..... by the time you realize this you are half way to the surface

Flaring and struggling for the few seconds I was able to was useless, and honestly, after the event, she never even realized that I was struggling against her or trying to slow down. she thought she handled everything quite calmly and slowly and thanked me for sticking with her.

I didnt even have to breathe out. I was yelling at her the whole time. When we surfaced, I remember seeing the whole boat crew and divers coming over the side to us. They said they knew something was wrong when they saw the bubbles and we came up under a dome of bubbles like something out of a Sci-fi movie. It happened so quickly that after surfacing there was still air in her tank when we turned it off.

She was a more experienced diver than I, with more training than I had. A dive master, trained for emergencies. Never occured to me she would be in a panic. How a person will react when it is someone else in trouble and how they will react when it is themselves can be two different things.

Armchair quarterbacking is nice. I did everything right. There is no way you would wait for someones tank to empty and then look at them to see if it is safe to offer them your air. You would offer the air. Depending on how you are grabbed, depends on how you can struggle. A hand on your harness is one thing but a grab from the other person that entangles you or has them holding your life support such as your air hose makes things a different story. I flared and I struggled. I was pulled in very close and had no leverage. And time stands still. I distinctly remember thinking each thing....flare, slow her down, stop her, we are going too fast, have to get my hand out from between us, we are not going to do a saftey stop, these bubbles are really cool (you think some strange stuff). But it is actualy only a few seconds and then it is over. I never had the option of just letting them go.

You learn what you should do and then you hope that you both do it when the time comes. What you do in an emergency is simply...the best you can.

Would I do the same thing again? Some days I say I would, some I wonder. Not every time will you not be able to see the other person at all but you have to be there and then you will know.
There is something different about every situation.

I had a little less than 100 dives. I was AOW and took Rescue immediately afterwards. I dont feel having had rescue before this incident would have changed anything.

 

[don Francisco]

I'd like to claim that I'd immediately vent the air in both our BCs to try to stem the ascent. But there is a big difference between hypotheticals and reality. Real events happen on a compressed time scale. What I might have done with reflection after six hundred or so dives, is probably very different to what I might have done in the heat of the moment with only 37 dives.

Arm-chair quarterbacking, is very different from trying to find an open receiver with 250# linebackers charging at you.

I was writing the above at the same time as you were posting the update telling how it actually played out. I think it's a great reminder of the differenct between theory and reality.

 

[drdaddy]

Personally, I don't like the Air2 - for just the reason you described. In the case of sharing air, I want to hand off my octo to my buddy and still have the separate inflator in my possession. In some countries (like Israel) "Air2" alone are not allowed - you must have an octopus. I also carry a pony with its own reg & air gauge, which I would have handed off to my buddy. By the way, in a complete OOA situation, you don't have any air to inflate your BCD or dry suit.

Also, I dive wetsuits (less mechanical stuff to mess with) - even in the cold NW ocean waters of Oregon and Washington. I have training and cert in drysuits and I can better understand how your situation of the uncontrolled ascent happened. Visualize it over and over and work it through and practice it. See if you could actually vent your buddy's BCD and drysuit and how easy it would be to control the ascent. These kind of drills are fun and confidence building. I have done this with a scenario that I should not have been in (except for my own foolishness) and it has helped me. Also, take the PADI Rescue Diver course - it really runs you through all different kinds of scenarios.

 

[imasinker]

A few weeks back there was a thread asking if it was ever ok to yell at students. The general consensus was that the only time a real yell was appropriate would be to stop an impending action that would be likely to cause injury. Yelling underwater really doesn't work very well for me, but I think we could carry the same concept to hitting.

Assuming the dive is within no stop limits, an excessive ascent rate (even 120 fpm) is not immediately life threatening so I will not abandon my buddy or pull my reg back from him. If necessary I would ride up with him exhaling all the way.

It sounds like the ooa diver may have been borderline panicked or at least target fixated on "get to the surface NOW". The OP did not mention the exact cause of the fast ascent. Is the ooa kicking like crazy? crushing the inflator? If I think it's the best/quickest way to break that fixation and get his attention on me, I would smack the ooa diver to get him to stop whatever he is doing. But it should not ever have gotten that far.


The situation sounded well managed until the ascent began.

* Buddy had a freeflow
* Reg was handed off-buddy now breathing happily-no more emergency, but still freeflowing.
* Communication OK's exchanged-ascent signalled

Like Peter said, the freeflowing reg should have been shut off at this point. Ascending thru a cloud of bubbles can be disorienting. If the freeflow was due to a first stage failure, the inceased IP could have caused the bc to autoinflate without action on the part of the diver.

Funny thing was on the way to the hospital, the ambulance attendant being a rescue diver told me the free flow should not be turned off if it was not effecting our view or sight in any way. This is an air source if something happened to mine free flow or not we would have air. He also told my buddy he had more than ample air to return to the surface breathing from either his octo or free flow reg. My buddy didn't seem to be panicking, more sombre maybe like you say borderline passive panic.

I can see your point to shut down the free flow in this case, and it does make sense. Thanks!

 

[GeorgeC]

Thank you for the post! I am glad everything went well (“medically” ie not DCS hit, etc.) after the surface.
Plenty of comments on what to do and what not to do already posted.
Moving forward and learning from this. It makes a clipped off pony bottle to the front of your rig sound more appealing. Simply give this to the diver in trouble while keeping close. If you are not tethered to the diver screaming to the surface it might be less stressful knowing you can let them go at anytime and helping them as much as possible along the way.

 

[RJP]

What do you do?

I'll have to make up some assumptions to fill in the blanks on the dive background, and then gotta make up some more assumptions for when you say "you try everything to slow down but can't" because that of wouldn't be the case. (ie: if I tried "everything" to slow down that would likely include finding a solution to the actual problem)

I'll fill in these assumptions based on the configuration I was diving at dive #37 - which for me was also about 3mo after getting certified. And in fact for kicks I pulled my log-book and as luck would have it my dive 37 (July 29th, 2008) was an 80' deep wreck (San Saba off of Long Beach Island NJ) so I will base the following assumptions about the dive itself on what I was actually doing on that day, plus throw in those assumptions needed to actually put us into the problematic situation:

Assumption 1: we are both properly weighted to accommodate holding a 15' stop depth with near empty tanks

Assumption 2: we're diving a no-deco plan, including repetitive dive situation

Assumption 3: we're diving 36% EANX, as the best possible "easily commercially available" mix for an 80' dive.

Assumption 4: we're both wearing drysuits

Assumption 5: we're diving steel 119's HP

Assumption 6: for worst case scenario assume the free flow happens at the furthest point of the dive just as we were about to turn to head back to the anchor line due to gas supply constraints, so we have about 1000psi left when he free-flows

Assumption 7: once exchanging the OK signal, and before officially thumbing the dive, I shut his valve down for a moment or two and turned it back on to see if the free flow resolved; let's assume it hadn't.

Assumption 8: my buddy was not diving with his 19cf pony, which he would have been able to switch to once we shut his main tank off and before we continued along the wreck to the anchor line. (Need to assume this in order to "get in trouble" per the situation we're discussing.)

Assumption 9: I was not slinging the 40cf bottle that I actually was slinging on my real dive #37 to 80ft, so I couldn't hand it off to my buddy once we shut his main tank down before continuing along the wreck back to the anchor line.

Assumption 10: We didn't turn his tank back on so he could go back to breathing off his free-flowing reg as we began to head back to the anchor line, using as much of his gas as was available prior to switching over to my octo when breathing off the freeflow was no longer possible. (another "this would never happen" assumption, but we'll make it here)

Assumption 11: At some point on our way back to anchor line, let's assume that someone's buoyancy went to hell and we started to ascend away from the line. (Not sure why that would happen, but as an uncontrolled ascent is the basis of the incident, let's assume it did.)

As to what I would do once we started ascending too fast, we would have the following "tried everything" options available but as Lynne and others pointed out you wouldn't have much time for any/all of them:

1.) Fully vent my BCD
2.) Fully vent buddy's BCD (we would/should have done this before beginning ascent, but assume we didn't)
3.) Vent my drysuit; assuming we're really moving by now I'd fully/quickly vent my suit at neck seal
4.) My buddy would have fully vented his drysuit, if not I'd reach his valve to vent for him, or open his neck seal for him.
5.) We'd be flaring out during this to slow us down.
5.) At this point it might occur that one of us has a stuck inflator on their BCD; we know it's not my buddy since his tank's off at this point, so I'd disconnect my inflator and dump again if needed. Would also just go ahead and disconnect my DS inflator as a precaution

At this point, I truly can't imagine that "nothing worked" to slow/stop our ascent. But since that's the scenario you've laid out let's assume that one or both of us are under-weighted. Possible my buddy is, as a weight check would have him weighted perfectly with 500PSI left, but maybe with the freeflow he's now bone dry. Plus one or both of us is overbreathing making neutral buoyancy much more difficult.

So worse case scenario we're ascending from 80ft to the surface in 24 seconds. Of course we are both exhaling to avoid lung over expansion.

So we now come to the basis of the "what would I do" scenario? Well, I would not jetison my buddy by force in order to avoid being "the second victim" because the fact is that the likelihood of either of us being "the first victim" are very small if we stay together. Again, looking at the facts/assumptions laid out above we were about 25 or so minutes into a dive with a 55min NDL. We were diving within recreational limits, so we should be able to make a direct ascent to the surface at any time. Further, given the EAD for 36% we're effectively ascending from 60ft. So chances of a DCS hit while ascending from a 25 minute dive to 60ft in 24 seconds are infinitesimally small. Make it worse case that we were diving air. We're still "only" doing a direct ascent from 80ft after a 25min dive. While not ideal, this is still "officially ok" from a recreational NDL dive profile.

On the other hand, if I jettison him during the ascent in my attempt to avoid being the second victim, I will quite likely be CREATING the first victim! With no breathable gas my buddy could of course drown right then and there. (If he didn't come after me for my reg at that point.) If I did manage to jettison him and he didn't drown on the spot, he might panic and hold his breath to the surface where he'd be looking at a for-certain LOI coming up from 80ft. But if he didn't and made it to the surface, he wouldn't have gas in his tank to inflate his BCD and/or suit, and in his panicked state might forget to orally inflate and/or ditch weights and then drown at the surface. Or perhaps when I get to the surface he comes after me in his panicked state.

A lot of analysis for a "simple" situation, huh? The most interesting part to me is the very large - and phenomenally wide ranging - set of assumptions that are required in order to GET INTO the situation in such a way that it is anything more than a mere nuisance. Does this sort of thing happen anyway? Absolutely. Is this sort of thing almost completely avoidable with even the most rudimentary training and what would be considered the minimally acceptable gear configuration for the dive in question? Absolutely.

Ironic aside: my dive #37 to the San Saba was a learning experience for me as well. My buddy and I decided we would naturally navigate the wreck looking for lobster instead of running a line. Well, the San Saba is pretty busted up and the visibility while not horrible was typical 20" or so. We got turned around and couldn't find the anchor line. We looked until we were about out of NDL/gas limits and then decided to do a free ascent. We stayed in touch contact during ascent and were able to complete a safety stop. Fortunately there was no current running that day, so we surfaced a mere 50yds away from the boat. Surface conditions were pretty flat too. So other than a pain in the @ss surface swim and a semi-serious ribbing from the captain about not doing free ascents we were none the worse for wear. But suppose there was even a modest current? Suppose there was a not uncommon 4ft-6ft chop at the surface? We could have been hundreds of yards off the boat after our stop, with a "not exactly guaranteed" swim ahead of us. If we had a reel we could have obviously used it to navigate the wreck and get right back to the up-line. Even if we didn't do that we would have had the reel with us at the point we realized we needed to do an ascent off the anchor, and then shot a bag, tied it into the wreck, and ascended on the line. This would have notified the surface of a potential problem as well as giving us a line to hang onto in the current. That was the last ocean dive I did without a reel or spool - whether I planned to use them or not.

 

[rstofer]

Use your knife and slash his bladder. Or yank off his inflator hose - maybe just cut it. Whatever it takes to empty his BC (or drysuit), FAST!. Of course, that assumes you have control of your own BC - not a given in this scenario. Unfortunately, I would readily sacrifice my buddy's BC to my well being.

You are the rescuer, it is your task (responsibility) to control the buoyancy of BOTH divers. What you should have done is completely dump both BCs before starting the ascent. Then SWIM to the surface. If it is at the beginning of the dive and both tanks are highly negative (say HP 100s) then you will need lift to get off the bottom. Try to do that using only your own BC. But YOU control the ascent.

I am not going to consider the complication of both divers using doubles. It takes a LOT of lift to get off the bottom.

With an unresponsive or uncooperative victim, this gets very complicated. You will run out of hands trying to control both BCs especially if you are using an AIR 2 type device for your own octo - not the case here.

All of which brings up the question, do you have enough lift to get 2 divers off the bottom at the beginning of the dive with full tanks?

Richard

 

[Surelyshirly]

Ray.....my situation was exactly your 1-6 scenario, and we both had pony bottles.....30's....we just never got to the OK sign part. Your assumption is that panic does not occur immediately in experienced divers. So was mine.