what would you do? Mk25 or HOG

[ligersandtions]

I think this is my major concern with HOG. Around where I live, no dive shop will do service on HOG, probably not because they can't do it because they are all Apeks dealer. It is more of a liability issue.

On the other hand, I have one of the best, if not the best Scubapro technician nearby. So in terms of local servive, Mk25 wins hand down here.

My main question is in what aspect is sealed diaphram is better than a unsealed piston in 45F-55F murky Monterey water? It seems temperature is not low enough to make a differences. Then how else can sealed diaphram be better?

I had HOG regs for a year and a half. No one in socal serviced them locally when I had them (I think one person may do it now, but I'm not entirely sure). I sent them in to get them serviced and the service bill ended up being more than I paid for the regs in the first place (granted, I got them on an amazing Black Friday sale, but still...). Anyways, I sold them after that because I already had MK25+S600 set-ups that were part of the parts for life deal, so servicing on them costs around $25.

At the price I spent to service the HOG regs, it would have made way more sense for me to dive them until they breathed poorly and then just throw them away (or sell them to someone with full disclosure that they need to be serviced). Based on that experience, I'm a proponent for having local service options available if you don't want to service them yourself.


As for the MK25's in your Monterey temperatures, I've never had problems when I've been up there....also never had problems up in the PNW (and I know of other people who dive the PNW regularly with MK25's who also haven't had any problems). I guess I wouldn't be entirely concerned about their performance in "cold" water.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Yes I criticize the "new kid on the block" for being the new Kid on the the block, because in my book you need to prove you have something to bring to the table and you'll have to do better than to bring a plagiarized regulator design to the table with a attractive price point, they offer a neat concept but are still very new, time will tell how far this company goes.

I never said the design was "antiquated" I merely pointed out they did not design it, I also pointed out I don't think they spend any money on R&D (at least not for Regulator)

The DS4/DST are great preforming regulators 1st stages and HOG copied them for the D1 & D2 (to the point I am fairly certain that Apek parts will work in a HOG) it's tried and true, been around for ages. Think of it as the comparison of Coca-Cola and Sam's Club Cola if you will. If HOG started developing their own design for a Regulator and successfully brought it to market they would gain a little respect from me.

As far as I am concerned HOG is in the same category as Gucci/Coach Knock off Handbags companies, with the exception that they manage to do it legally due to patent law... it may be Legal but it's immoral IMO.

That's all I have to say about that.

And when were you privy to the amount of money spent on R&D? Before you stark talking out of your butt you should investigate things a bit. While they may look the same they are not. Chris spent a lot of time working with the engineer (who I met and talked with at DEMA just this past November) tweaking the design, working with different materials, and adjusting specs to meet his standards. The second stages were also worked on quite extensively. The new Edge regs have been in development for months. They may also look like others but I saw the prototypes and was there when design changes were actually still being talked about. So while you only guess at what you think you know, I know that there has been considerable time and money spent on R&D.

You say you are "fairly certain Apeks parts will work in a HOG", but truth is you don't know do you?

As for original design - why? If it works it works and there is no need to change it. Making something totally new and of "original design" is for the person who has too much money and time. A wheel is a wheel. It may have different sizes, features, cosmetics, etc. - but it is still a wheel. Ogg or whatever the name of the caveman, or his heirs, who invented it should by your standards be the only one making money off of every wheel sold.

A piston reg is a piston reg. I've worked on Mares, Sherwood,ScubaPro, Oceanic, and Aqualung. Guess what? None is an original design. They have different features and some extra parts. They use different specs on some torque settings. But they are essentially the same design that is 50 years old or more. Diaphragms the same thing. Why retool for something that works?

As far as Gucci/Coach stuff? It's a friggin purse. Not a new design. Still a bag with handles. All they do is change the cosmetics and slap a $200 or more premium price because some celebrity skank puts her dog in it and every bimbo has to have one. There is nothing better about the name. It's just marketing to the gullible.

 

[Ozwald]

MK25's ....period. I dive up here in Westhawk Lake, it just doesn't get much colder and silty than that especially in November/December. No issues, no problems.

 

[Kunundrum]

You say you are "fairly certain Apeks parts will work in a HOG", but truth is you don't know do you?

I have compared the two service kits side by side... I know the answer and so do you...

I'm going to Honor the OP request and not discuss this any further in this thread.

 

[divad]

As far as I am concerned HOG is in the same category as Gucci/Coach Knock off Handbags companies, with the exception that they manage to do it legally due to patent law... it may be Legal but it's immoral IMO.

That's all I have to say about that.

Well triple snap.........you go girl.

 

[Fishpie]

Jim I understand (and mostly share) your passion for the HOG line (and I have no financial gain from showing it) but some of your technical understanding of the HOG regulator minutia has been a bit off.
Maybe leave that for Chris?

 

[racerx_]

As far as Gucci/Coach stuff? It's a friggin purse...All they do is change the cosmetics and slap a $200 or more premium price because some celebrity skank puts her dog in it and every bimbo has to have one.

Best.quote.ever.

 

[divad]

As far as I am concerned HOG is in the same category as Gucci/Coach Knock off Handbags companies, with the exception that they manage to do it legally due to patent law... it may be Legal but it's immoral IMO.

That's all I have to say about that.

How's that Model T working out?

 

[j2s]

HOG, I do my own servicing and parts are readily available....They're better made, the ports are more convenient, especially for doubles and they're a lot less....... It's why I switched from Apeks......As far as lds's telling you they don't know or have never heard of HOG, they're lying !!!..They know, they just don't want to loose their monopoly on servicing...They're bound by agreement to only sell certain brands and they don't have divers' best interest in mind....

 

[Deep South Divers]

Entertaining...

My main question is in what aspect is sealed diaphram is better than a unsealed piston in 45F-55F murky Monterey water? It seems temperature is not low enough to make a differences. Then how else can sealed diaphram be better?

Sealed diaphragm first stages transmit pressure through the diaphragm, whereas a piston regulator does not. Essentially, the water - and all that is in it, including salt, silt, microscopic critters, and the like - is either totally sealed out of the moving parts of the first stage (diaphragm) or actually goes into the first stage and contacts the piston.

To prevent the piston from becoming disfunctional due to contamination, a technician will often fill the regulator with "grease" - lubricant like silicone or Christolube. To me, this creates a place for all of that stuff to stick - inside of the regulator.

Here's an diagram of a Mk25 in action:



Notice how the seals around the piston are in direct contact with ambient water? My experience is that they tend to get "gummed up" pretty quickly with our divers diving in silty, salty waters... Say, around 100 dives or so, and quicker if our divers are really working in low viz waters. For us, 100 dives is anywhere from 1-3 months. That is, the firsts need to be rebuilt every two months, give or take.

I don't have a similar diagram for an Apeks or HOG reg - they only publish "exploded views"... I do, however, have a diagram for a Scubapro Mk18 regulator, which is a turreted (like the Mk25) diaphragm fist stage regulator:



Notice that the diaphragm totally seals any water (and it's contaminants) from entering the first stage.

HOG and Apeks regulators are actually even more robust than this - in that ALL of their moving and working components are behind the diaphragm. Unlike the Scubapro Mk18, HOG and Apeks regulators do not have a spring on the "wet" side of the diaphragm.

I could show an exploded view of these types of firsts, but what I'm talking about is not totally clear in an exploded view like they are in a diagram of the "reg in action."

Our Apeks and HOG firsts last about four times longer between services than a piston first stage regulator would under similar circumstances.

The key difference is the environmental sealing... Which, by chance, also has the advantage of being capable of handling lower temperatures as well and is frequently called a "cold water" first stage. This implies, however errantly, that an "environmentally sealed" first stage is not appropriate for "warm" waters. Nothing could be further from the truth... Environmentally sealed (diaphragm) regs work great in all water temperatures.

The real question isn't "What advantage (other than coldwater performance) does a diaphragm first have over a piston first," it should be, "What advantage does a piston first have over a diaphragm first?" We don't know of any.