What upgrades did you make to the sidewinder?

[rddvet]

I'm in the process of considering adding a sidewinder as a second rebreather (mainly just for the fun of trying something new and for places I may not want to try ramming my current bm'd unit into). From the looks of it, the stock unit comes with a dsv, fischer cable no computer, no secondary p02 monitoring, and only an adv for diluent add.
I see there's the foam lining, a needle valve (though I'd likely choose a fathom needle valve if I added one), an additional mav that can be added to the diluent side, bov options, and probably more that I'm missing.

I'd like to stay true to my current rb, so I'd want all diluent add to be off board and preferably via a QC6 so I'm not having multiple connections. Is changing over to QC6 possible? I haven't really seen how exactly the offboard dil add is plumbed.

Is a bov an easy add-on or is it a nightmare for additional hose routing?

I'm used to secondary p02 monitoring besides my primary, so I like the idea of a hud, but it looks like it uses the shearwater hud with that annoying box (I'm spoiled because my unit uses the same hud but the stuff in the hud box is in the head).

I'm still not sure I can justify buying another unit for "fun" when I have a unit I love and I plan to keep as my primary unit for most dives. But I'm trying to sort out info before making the decision.

 

[tbone1004]

QC6 for dil is how most I know are running them.

BOV is easy and you would essentially route it exactly the same as you do on your Fathom, if you are not using it as a redundant breather, you could just as easily use the same bov for both units.
The external box is required for a HUD because there is no place for a board or battery in either of the heads, so unless you go to a NERD, you don't have much of a choice for that, though I do believe that Shearwater discontinued the HUD, could be wrong.
You don't need to use Fischer, and unless you have fischer computers already, I would recommend using the 4-pin subconn cables.

Can see some good pictures of stuff on Jason's page
KISS Sidewinder and XDeep — Jason Richards Christina Richards Cartographers Explorers
KISS Sidewinder: Hoses under the arms and rigging options — Jason Richards Christina Richards Cartographers Explorers
Sidewinder: a smaller O2 Valve and Regulator — Jason Richards Christina Richards Cartographers Explorers

This one shows the QC6 and BOV routing, and I think you and C are both using Golem bov's from last time I saw you. He does not use a MAV, however with an ADV and a BOV I'm not entirely sure that I'd want a MAV. Extra clutter for no real benefit.
Rigging a KISS Sidewinder with BOV — Jason Richards Christina Richards Cartographers Explorers

 

[rddvet]

QC6 for dil is how most I know are running them.

BOV is easy and you would essentially route it exactly the same as you do on your Fathom, if you are not using it as a redundant breather, you could just as easily use the same bov for both units.
The external box is required for a HUD because there is no place for a board or battery in either of the heads, so unless you go to a NERD, you don't have much of a choice for that, though I do believe that Shearwater discontinued the HUD, could be wrong.
You don't need to use Fischer, and unless you have fischer computers already, I would recommend using the 4-pin subconn cables.

Can see some good pictures of stuff on Jason's page
KISS Sidewinder and XDeep — Jason Richards Christina Richards Cartographers Explorers
KISS Sidewinder: Hoses under the arms and rigging options — Jason Richards Christina Richards Cartographers Explorers
Sidewinder: a smaller O2 Valve and Regulator — Jason Richards Christina Richards Cartographers Explorers

This one shows the QC6 and BOV routing, and I think you and C are both using Golem bov's from last time I saw you. He does not use a MAV, however with an ADV and a BOV I'm not entirely sure that I'd want a MAV. Extra clutter for no real benefit.
Rigging a KISS Sidewinder with BOV — Jason Richards Christina Richards Cartographers Explorers

Thanks. I'll look more at Jason's stuff. I've looked at it once, but it was before I was really interested in the sidewinder. I was hoping to just use my petrel and switch it back and forth from one rb to the other. I don't know anything about the subcon connector.
I know with my unit having mav, adv, and bov I needed a y-block to split it all up. I haven't really taken a close look at how all the hoses and things route on the sidewinder. When I tried Edd's he hooked me all up and it was several years ago before he had a dil mav and before I knew what the hell I was looking at on a rb.

 

[tbone1004]

Thanks. I'll look more at Jason's stuff. I've looked at it once, but it was before I was really interested in the sidewinder. I was hoping to just use my petrel and switch it back and forth from one rb to the other. I don't know anything about the subcon connector.
I know with my unit having mav, adv, and bov I needed a y-block to split it all up. I haven't really taken a close look at how all the hoses and things route on the sidewinder. When I tried Edd's he hooked me all up and it was several years ago before he had a dil mav and before I knew what the hell I was looking at on a rb.

the subconn is the same cable type they use with the DiveCAN and is actually wet pluggable unlike the fischer. It is vastly superior, but is not available on the Petrel as a bulkhead option, only on a cable. Easy to change over if you swap later, but you can use the petrel you have with a standard fischer.
Part of the problem with the sidewinder is people think of it as a sidemount rebreather, when it really isn't. It's a backmounted ccr that got split in the middle. It has a lot more in common with your Fathom than it does with any other sidemount rebreather on the market. You can make the plumbing essentially identical to the way you have it on the fathom

 

[rddvet]

the subconn is the same cable type they use with the DiveCAN and is actually wet pluggable unlike the fischer. It is vastly superior, but is not available on the Petrel as a bulkhead option, only on a cable. Easy to change over if you swap later, but you can use the petrel you have with a standard fischer.
Part of the problem with the sidewinder is people think of it as a sidemount rebreather, when it really isn't. It's a backmounted ccr that got split in the middle. It has a lot more in common with your Fathom than it does with any other sidemount rebreather on the market. You can make the plumbing essentially identical to the way you have it on the fathom

The subconn petrel is only available through Kiss?

I've looked at more photos and I'm starting to see how the routing wouldn't be dramatically different.

 

[tbone1004]

The subconn petrel is only available through Kiss?

I've looked at more photos and I'm starting to see how the routing wouldn't be dramatically different.

KISS and Revo unfortunately, it's an absolutely absurd decision that @Shearwater made, but it is what it is and they won't change it any time soon. The fischer cables should have been discontinued a decade ago when the Predator controller was discontinued as that was the only justification to maintain the 7-pin connector.

What routing differences would you have to make and why?

 

[rddvet]

KISS and Revo unfortunately, it's an absolutely absurd decision that @Shearwater made, but it is what it is and they won't change it any time soon. The fischer cables should have been discontinued a decade ago when the Predator controller was discontinued as that was the only justification to maintain the 7-pin connector.

What routing differences would you have to make and why?

I talked to Edd a couple of minutes ago and he gave me the low down on his setup recommendations. I'm still interested to hear what choices people added outside of standard. I've had a couople messages about people doing things like changing over the Golem Gear mavs and shrimps.

I wasn't really sure what house routing differences there would with or without bov.

 

[grantctobin]

-Nerd2 with 4Pin connector on short nub
-Spares box has a Fischer cable with Petrel length cord to have as backup electronic setup. Like TBone above, I despise Fischer. Nice to have as a backup.
-Syntactic foam lining (it lives in cold water) and choice of color was nice
-Bottom and top plugs
-Needle valve and unplugged first stage.
-O2 flow stop shutoff. Largely unnecessary with needle valve but very rare that I have to adjust needle valve. Have an inflator attachment just short of the needle valve for offboard O2 addition if I’m in a pinch.
-QC6 feeding ADV and BOV. Similar to Jason setup. Have an ADV plug and an MAV to have the option if wanted. Would reroute towards the Fathom routing if I went this way, otherwise I’d buy a Golem DSV to have.
-Small counterlung
-Oxycheq loop covers
-Omniswivel 360° swivel on BOV
-I don’t have an additional QC on my BOV. Have considered it but generally just unscrew the fitting when I need to sanitize everything
-Short sized loop hoses
-Replaced plastic hose clamps with stainless steel
-Male QC6 on both bottles and all stages/offboard. Additional BC standard inflator whip on 20’ bottle first stage.
-Tempted to buy the LM calibration kit but it uses so little O2 to calibrate anyway.
-Katana 2 so no mounting plate needed. I don’t like the mounting plates and went with hardware similar to Jason’s when I had a webbing style harness.
-I route loop over the shoulders rather than Jason’s under the arm routing
-Sump UK bent tail D-rings to make sidemount bottle attachment easier.
-Used to run a belly band to keep the base of the scrubber cans more forward but have since found it unnecessary.

If you go with the KISS DSV, get the O-Ring tool. It’ll save you a ton of grief. I prefer the iQSub DSV (Sorry Mike) but that’s mostly for familiarity and the loop connector bayonets. Neither are horrible for maintenance but I find the iQSub/Golem easier. Note that if you get one, 50% chance you get it from Jakub within a week and 50% chance it takes six months and a PayPal threat to get to you. I’d order from the Thornton’s direct.

All of this pales in comparison to the value of having someone that knows how to adjust it set it up with you. If I did it all over again, I’d get a hardwired Petrel or NERD2 and the Sump heads. Note that this won’t work if you’re using it as a redundant rebreather as you need an ADV (if this is primary and you have a sidekick/Liberty/RB80/etc as a bailout, you could probably get away with it but it’d be a pain to go back and forth with any depth change). If you don’t have an ADV on your fathom, you’re in the same boat.

Matt Vinzant runs a Sidewinder with Sump heads and BOV using QC6 connectors with O2 MAV/orfice/needle? on right shoulder and diluent block on left shoulder, so hand position and familiarity is the same between units.

 

[rddvet]

-Nerd2 with 4Pin connector on short nub
-Spares box has a Fischer cable with Petrel length cord to have as backup electronic setup. Like TBone above, I despise Fischer. Nice to have as a backup.
-Syntactic foam lining (it lives in cold water) and choice of color was nice
-Bottom and top plugs
-Needle valve and unplugged first stage.
-O2 flow stop shutoff. Largely unnecessary with needle valve but very rare that I have to adjust needle valve. Have an inflator attachment just short of the needle valve for offboard O2 addition if I’m in a pinch.
-QC6 feeding ADV and BOV. Similar to Jason setup. Have an ADV plug and an MAV to have the option if wanted. Would reroute towards the Fathom routing if I went this way, otherwise I’d buy a Golem DSV to have.
-Small counterlung
-Oxycheq loop covers
-Omniswivel 360° swivel on BOV
-I don’t have an additional QC on my BOV. Have considered it but generally just unscrew the fitting when I need to sanitize everything
-Short sized loop hoses
-Replaced plastic hose clamps with stainless steel
-Male QC6 on both bottles and all stages/offboard. Additional BC standard inflator whip on 20’ bottle first stage.
-Tempted to buy the LM calibration kit but it uses so little O2 to calibrate anyway.
-Katana 2 so no mounting plate needed. I don’t like the mounting plates and went with hardware similar to Jason’s when I had a webbing style harness.
-I route loop over the shoulders rather than Jason’s under the arm routing
-Sump UK bent tail D-rings to make sidemount bottle attachment easier.
-Used to run a belly band to keep the base of the scrubber cans more forward but have since found it unnecessary.

If you go with the KISS DSV, get the O-Ring tool. It’ll save you a ton of grief. I prefer the iQSub DSV (Sorry Mike) but that’s mostly for familiarity and the loop connector bayonets. Neither are horrible for maintenance but I find the iQSub/Golem easier. Note that if you get one, 50% chance you get it from Jakub within a week and 50% chance it takes six months and a PayPal threat to get to you. I’d order from the Thornton’s direct.

All of this pales in comparison to the value of having someone that knows how to adjust it set it up with you. If I did it all over again, I’d get a hardwired Petrel or NERD2 and the Sump heads. Note that this won’t work if you’re using it as a redundant rebreather as you need an ADV (if this is primary and you have a sidekick/Liberty/RB80/etc as a bailout, you could probably get away with it but it’d be a pain to go back and forth with any depth change). If you don’t have an ADV on your fathom, you’re in the same boat.

Matt Vinzant runs a Sidewinder with Sump heads and BOV using QC6 connectors with O2 MAV/orfice/needle? on right shoulder and diluent block on left shoulder, so hand position and familiarity is the same between units.

Thanks for the answer.
I haven't seen anything about Sump heads anywhere. What's the difference.

When adding a needle valve does the leaky valve get removed so you can get higher flow with the needle? Why did you unblock the oxygen reg? I only have one experience with a needle valve, and it's preferentially used with a blocked first stage

 

[tbone1004]

Thanks for the answer.
I haven't seen anything about Sump heads anywhere. What's the difference.

When adding a needle valve does the leaky valve get removed so you can get higher flow with the needle? Why did you unblock the oxygen reg? I only have one experience with a needle valve, and it's preferentially used with a blocked first stage

ideally you'd remove the leaky valve altogether, though the unofficial needle valve from KISS actually has 2 leaky valves in it to help stabilize everything with the needle. Fathom maintains the blocked first stage because it helps to minimize the need to adjust the needle, basically it makes the needle act like an adjustable CMF. If you have it unblocked, it removes depth limits unless you get the crazy stiff springs to have super high IP, but also gives you the freedom to use different first stages where blocked firsts are limited to sealed diaphragms.