What type of boat to buy??

[matt_unique]

I'm looking at purchasing a new boat before the spring of 08 and looking for some input. My requirements are:

Big enough for 2 people do dive off
$15,000 or less
Able to handle moderate chop

I live on the Great Lakes but am conservative. I don't need anything to handle 6' swells. I've checked out different boats - from the Bayliner 175 to fishing type boats. Both seem to have goods and bads.

I'd really appreciate any input from everyone so that I can find the right boat.

A few questions come to mind....will this be your first boat? Is your primary intended use diving? (i.e. As opposed to having a boat with a porta potti, cuddy cabin to overnight, etc.)

If your only goal is to dive, get a center console with a 1/4 swim platform and a 4 stroke EFI outboard. The center console offers maximum utility in terms of storing gear. Reinforce the swim platform and install a 4 step X-mas tree dive ladder. $15K is going to be tough though.

Nemrod actually owns a Bayliner 175, I have proof, but publicly he says their bad. Hands down, you will get more boat for the same money with a Bayliner. I've owned my 19' Bayliner Cuddy cabin for 8 seasons and have run only salt water, kept on a mooring or slip, and have carried many sets of double tanks for three divers with stage bottles and provisions for spending a weekend on board. The cuddy cabin allows you to take water over the bow and it just spills over. The cabin also allows some privacy for using the porta potti, room to sleep, and place to keep things dry.

With that being said, and this is in part why I asked if this was your first boat, your needs and wants will likely change FAST regardless of what boat you buy. There is something called 2 footitus that afflicts all boat owners. In my case I have suppressed this affliction and the result will be 7 footitus to be remedied this winter by way of a 25' pilot house, right now leaning toward a C-Dory 25 with twin engines but still researching several options including Tomcat and other Bayliner cruiser options.

Good luck with your research.

--Matt

 

[Nemrod]

Things to avoid in small boats for diving, bowriders, carpet, large cabins that use up all the space.

Boats use a variety of construction methods.

A. Boston Whaler, EdgeWater and some others use a single pice hull with double bottom and double sides filled with foam and thus are truely unsinkable.

B. Some boats like Grady use a grid structure in a fiberglass shell, the unner floor is layed on the grid and the grid pumped with foam and the unit sealed.

C. Some boats use a fiberglass shell with wooden stringers and a plywood floor covered with carpet and vinyl


A and B result in strong boats, C can also if the material are high quality, properly prepard and a sealed deck. Unfortunately, every Bayliner I have seen has been rotten, they seem to begin rotting on the store lot.

There are other methods and many variations on building a boat. The three I outlined are the most common.


Some folks like heavy glass single hulled boats, the structure of the hull does not rely on the wooden interior and stringers, they are to support the deck only, such boats can be boat cheap and refurbished "easily"

N

 

[captain]

The only way I can see to buy new with a $15,000 limit and still be fairly big water capable is a 13 to 15 inflatable such as a Zodiac MK II or Grand Raid and about a 35 HP engine. Those are not RIB's but they are capable boats. I had a Mark II with a 25 HP engine and it worked well for two divers.

 

[matt_unique]

Things to avoid in small boats for diving, bowriders, carpet, large cabins that use up all the space.

Boats use a variety of construction methods.

A. Boston Whaler, EdgeWater and some others use a single pice hull with double bottom and double sides filled with foam and thus are truely unsinkable.

B. Some boats like Grady use a grid structure in a fiberglass shell, the unner floor is layed on the grid and the grid pumped with foam and the unit sealed.

C. Some boats use a fiberglass shell with wooden stringers and a plywood floor covered with carpet and vinyl


A and B result in strong boats, C can also if the material are high quality, properly prepard and a sealed deck. Unfortunately, every Bayliner I have seen has been rotten, they seem to begin rotting on the store lot.

There are other methods and many variations on building a boat. The three I outlined are the most common.


Some folks like heavy glass single hulled boats, the structure of the hull does not rely on the wooden interior and stringers, they are to support the deck only, such boats can be boat cheap and refurbished "easily"

N

Wood has been used in shipbuilding since man learned to float and as Nem points out, is a fine material if constructed properly. Foam core is the best "core use material" in my opinion, but any water access into a foam area results in a saturated sponge affect. That is why you can find some AWFULLY heavy older Boston Whalers lugging a lot of water following Nemrod's brand example. It is not possible to buy a boat, by any brand, at any price, that properly seals exterior fittings that enter the core including Grady, Boston Whaler, etc. None of them drill a larger hole, fill with resin, redrill the correct size hole for the bolt/screw/etc, then seal the bolt with 4200 or 5200. It's discouraging to learn this but unfortunately true. Most brands drill a hole, squirt in some sealer, then call it a day. In a few years when the sealer shrinks the water gets into the core and the fun begins. Pick ANY brand of cored boat and you will find examples of core damage from water entry.

No boat, less aluminum, is impervious to core soaking problems. AL has it's own problems (corrosion if not properly maintained). I looked seriously at AL boats but unfortunately there are no cruiser style recreational size boats produced on the East Coast. There are quite a few on the west coast. It is extremely rare to find anything other than AL hulls and deisel engines in commercial vessels because it's the most reliable configuration. I spoke to a commercial boat builder and they quoted $150,000 - $200,000 to build a 25' pilot house/cruiser design similar to the C-Dory, Orca, Silver Streak, Ironwood, etc.

Anyway properly maintained is the key. Bayliners do not rot more than any other boat brand using the same construction methods (i.e. glass exterior with wooden stringers) including Sea Ray and many others.

--Matt

 

[DOkie]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Not sure if I'm any closer to making a decision but I definately have some things to research.

I see the point about Boston Whalers, etc but I can also buy TWO Bayliners for the cost of one of those. I have owned a boat in the past (pre-diving) and as Matt Unique pointed out, maintenance is the key.

Anyways, I'm going to take everyone's input and keep researching... I also have some GOOD questions to ask the dealers when I talk to them.

Again, thanks for all the input and help..

 

[scuba pirate]

I just sold a 1985 Mako 25' center console with twin 2003 Johnson 150s for $20,000. I kept it in a barn, and it was in great shape. There are so many good USED boats out there I can't see why anyone would want to buy an overpriced brand new one. I say let someone else eat the large hunk of depreciation from buying a new boat.

I would recommend going on www.boattrader.com.

I have a 27 Tournament Contender now with twin 250 Yamahas. I do alot of Offshore fishing though as well as Diving.

Here is an example of a boat on boat trader.

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/9/3/89192393.htm

 

[Nemrod]

Two Bayliners are still just two Bayliners. Try this with a Bayliner:

Whatever you get look for something that is solidly built and will hold up over the years.

N

 

[bgray]

I swear Nemrod, you've got to be one the most arogent persons I have seen on here in a while. If you have nothing nice to say, then don't. If somebody can get a used I/O for a reasonable price, I say go for it. A cheap boat is better than no boat at all. It may not be built to the standards of your "whaler" but it could still be made a fine boat for recreational diving. If anyone has been on the board for anytime at all, they will know your screen name and your feelings on boat type so do us all a favor and stop bragging, PLEASE.

 

[Nemrod]

bgray, I love that you like to name call, that is to bad for you and indicates a severe arrogance upon your part. The OP asked for opinions and I have given mine. Spending money on a boat can be a huge expense and made only more expensive by getting something not up to the task--NO, any boat is NOT better than NO boat. I don't agree with you. I have stated many times there are many, many different brands of boats that are of good quality other than my favorite brand and quite a few I would rather own than the little boat I have--I am sorry that your going to resort to name calling. Why don't you stick to providing your opinion regarding the OPs question rarther than attacking mine--if that is possible.

The 15,000 dollars is enough with luck to get a decent quality boat--used--and would be a wiser purchase in my opinion than a new Bayliner bowrider. I, unlike you, have explained construction methods, provided insight into what differentiates various brands, providing a link to the Hull Truth website, shown pictures of how to outfit a small boat for diving, you have done NOTHING and provided NOTHING to help the OP.

Matt, unlike you, provides excellent info, I am very happy that he is getting a new boat--great for him.--and look forward to seeing and hearing more of his adventures upon it. While I don't agree with Matt on Bayliners, I do know that he is always trying to provide good council, so am I even if we don't always agree, again, perhaps you should stick to providing relevent information.

Big water, like the Great Lakes the OP is operating on potentially is very unforgiving and the whinning dribble like brays arrogant post does nothing to educate the OP or help him/her. When green water is bearing down on you, the sky turns black and the wind howls, ask yourself, bgray or Nemrod?

Matt, I would like him to be my skipper anyplace and anytime, I trust him and respect him as I have told him before.

(edit for typo and to add neat pic of old cover)
N

 

[Nemrod]

Using this as an opportunity to explain further why some small boats are better than others for big water use some features to look for are the self bailing designs. A self bailing hull will clear water without assistence of a bilge pump and in many cases self bailing boats will remain afloat with the outboard (if outboard powered) above water and therefore are still capable of manuvering and can be driven back up on top of the water--they self rescue so to speak. Here is a Maritime Skiff, an example of a small self bailing design:

Now here is the common and popular Bayliner, not self bailing, the engine is an inboard outboard which is not compartmentalized from the bilge, this boat will rely upon a small electric bilge pump to clear water, in any sort of sea it will rapidly fill with water and sink with perhaps a bit of the bow poking out of the water:

Another design factor is flotation, all sub 20 foot boats in the US must be "unsinkable" but unsinkable does not require level flotation at maximum load capacity, look for a boat that will float level will flooded with water. Such a boat is much less likely to capsize (turn upside down--roll over) and will continue to float even when fully loaded---numerous brands of boats are capable of this feat.

To repeat, the pointy looking ubiquitous family bowrider which does not have level flotation, does not have self bailing, does not have reserve bouyancy will see the bow punch into the first big roller it hits and fill with water, the water having no place to go will weigh the boat down, the next roller will capsize the boat and send the crew into the water. They are fine on a ski lake, not in the ocean or the infamous Great Lakes that has sent some really big boats to the bottom.

Anyone thinking to purchase a small boat for use on big water should do their research--lot's of it. In some cases--no boat is better than a boat that is dangerous for the purpose it is to be used for. Once you spend your money on such a boat it is gone, better to save and study and save and then spend wisely--once. If this is arrogant--so be it. When your dog paddling 5 miles off shore in the cold Great Lakes with one foot of your Bayliner (generic for pointy little bow riders) poking out of the water ask yorself, bgrays advice or Nemrod's advice? Ask your wife dog paddling beside you what she thinks.

The little boat we are sitting in here will self bail, will remain afloat, will float level with the engine clear of the water, will take a beating, will get you back that one time yiour stupid and go when you should not have.

I am done with this thread, I return you to your regularly scheduled scubaboard name calling and inaccurate intenet commando BS.

N