Less than 19 seems to defeat the purpose. I often dive rental tanks (hauling 6 sets of double for my boys and me is a bit much--we have to travel to dive) so use the 19cu.ft. bailouts w/ the bailout 2nd stage necklaced. The reason for necklacing the pony instead of octopus is that as long as I'm diving w/ my boys who are equipped the same way, sudden emergency "donation" of regulator to buddy should be an extremely low probability. We use a weight strapped to the main tank to counterbalance pony. We use octopus as well, mostly to average out air consumption. I am such a fan of "self rescue" and use pretty much a solo mentality even when in a group. If I unexpectedly loose air, I don't want to have to find anybody!
what size of pony bottle
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Did you teach these concepts to your boys yourself?
Braunbehrens
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I don't understand the advantage of putting the pony on the necklace?
Why not carry the pony in a stage bottle configuration, that way it's modular...you can hand it off easily if necessary.
Also, if you like to "average out" air consumption I suggest you take a look at a long hose configuration.
You're lucky you can dive with your family, it must be a lot of fun!
Why not carry the pony in a stage bottle configuration, that way it's modular...you can hand it off easily if necessary.
Also, if you like to "average out" air consumption I suggest you take a look at a long hose configuration.
You're lucky you can dive with your family, it must be a lot of fun!
To answer Jonnythan: yes. I realize the more self reliant my boys are the greater their chance of survival. I am not closed minded though. W/ a single rental tank (no H valve etc.) the pony w/ it's own regulator is a completely redundant piece of equipment. If I have a malfunction (OOA, failed 1st or 2nd stage etc.) I simply drop my chin and find my pony regulator. While on this totally isolated backup, I can surface or perhaps rectify the problem w/ my primary system. If you come out of nowhere and take my primary out of my mouth, same thing, I drop my chin to the pony, and then I have the option of leisurely finding my Octo, should it be dislodged from it' proper place, and switching over to it. Where is the problem here? If there is a flaw here then you people need to let me know. Oh boy I gotta go...a wedding... more when I return home
Mark
Mark
Braunbehrens
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Mark, you said "if there is a flaw..."
Well, first of all, have fun at the wedding, if it's one of those where you can have fun ;-)
I don't know if flaw is the right word.
One of the huge advantages of a pony rigged as a stage bottle is that if you encounter someoene who is half panicked and OOA, you can hand off an air supply to them. You may not want to get in real close with the person and give them your octo, because if they freak out and inflate the bc while holding onto you it could be really bad for both of you.
Another thing you may want to think about is that if you have the pony in front of you it allows you to access the valve, and to monitor the pressure in the bottle. Two huge advantages.
You're probably not going to like my next suggestion...but here goes. Before you dive check that the "pony" (it's really a stage in that configuration) is full, charge the regulator, then turn it off. In the event of a failure of your primary gas delivery system you want to be 100% sure that there is gas in the stage. Stick the reg in your mouth and turn on the stage. This should take all of 3 seconds.
If the pony is mounted on your back, and you don't have acces to the valve nor can you read the spg, how can you be sure it didn't all bubble away due to some leak in the first stage?
I don't think your system is completely unsafe or anything, it's already way better than what most people dive. The fact that you think about self rescue, is also great, and I'm sure your have taught your kids well. I just think there may be some room for improvement.
Well, first of all, have fun at the wedding, if it's one of those where you can have fun ;-)
I don't know if flaw is the right word.
One of the huge advantages of a pony rigged as a stage bottle is that if you encounter someoene who is half panicked and OOA, you can hand off an air supply to them. You may not want to get in real close with the person and give them your octo, because if they freak out and inflate the bc while holding onto you it could be really bad for both of you.
Another thing you may want to think about is that if you have the pony in front of you it allows you to access the valve, and to monitor the pressure in the bottle. Two huge advantages.
You're probably not going to like my next suggestion...but here goes. Before you dive check that the "pony" (it's really a stage in that configuration) is full, charge the regulator, then turn it off. In the event of a failure of your primary gas delivery system you want to be 100% sure that there is gas in the stage. Stick the reg in your mouth and turn on the stage. This should take all of 3 seconds.
If the pony is mounted on your back, and you don't have acces to the valve nor can you read the spg, how can you be sure it didn't all bubble away due to some leak in the first stage?
I don't think your system is completely unsafe or anything, it's already way better than what most people dive. The fact that you think about self rescue, is also great, and I'm sure your have taught your kids well. I just think there may be some room for improvement.
Braunbehrens, the long hose idea is probably a superior idea. I just haven't tried it yet--I have no excuse except resistance to change. I also gave a lot of thought to the configuration you suggest for the pony. I don't yet have a quick release for my pony but would like to have one for several reasons including the ability to hand it off underwater. (I could still use necklace, but it would need to be configured to allow me to break it free w/out stripping off the mouthpiece) If I have a deco debt, I'd just as soon not travel to the surface w/ the OOA diver.
The reason for the Pony on the necklace is that I want the most likely to work regulator the easiest to find.
In the widest number of senarios the pony is the most likely to work. If I donate (or have it snatched from my mouth) my primary, then my octopus would be perhaps ever so slightly more likely to work as the pony (I know the 1st is working and there was air when I donated--the pony had 1 test breath pre-dive). Under all situations where I'm the one having the problem, the pony is far more likely to work. In the case of donating my primary, I can retrieve my Octopus from my right shoulder. If it's not there (caught under my BC or tank etc.) I can use the pony if necessary and still find and switch to my Octo. I'm not doing hero technical dives here. In caves, wrecks, just plain deep or otherwise demanding dives smart buddies usually operate nearly hand in glove, staying w/in arms reach if at all possible. The situation I'm talking about I'm in 30 to maybe 120 feet, poking around reefs or maybe wreck EXTERIORS. Buddies often get distance between them or get absorbed in something and loose track of each other for a moment (I often loose my buddy just to discover he is 4' away over my head or right under me). To have a safety backup system that requires near instantaneous access to my buddy is just insane to me. I am trying desperately to avoid the instantaneous NEED of a buddy. At the same time, if another gets into trouble, (one w/out a pony?) I want 1st to be able to personally survive aiding him, and 2nd be able to successfully aid him. (When I'm w/ my sons it's the other way around--they gotta live no matter what happens to me) I like knowing that if my primary fails, I can immediately access my pony BEFORE trying to figure out what went wrong. Rather it's OOA, freeflow, or a rolled off valve, I can check it in relaxed conditions while breathing off the pony instead of while holding my breath looking for my buddy. I think and work better while breathing. You can drown amazingly fast.
Again, if anyone here can see a problem w/ my logic I will first wince at the hit to my ego, and then be eternally gratefull.
The reason for the Pony on the necklace is that I want the most likely to work regulator the easiest to find.
In the widest number of senarios the pony is the most likely to work. If I donate (or have it snatched from my mouth) my primary, then my octopus would be perhaps ever so slightly more likely to work as the pony (I know the 1st is working and there was air when I donated--the pony had 1 test breath pre-dive). Under all situations where I'm the one having the problem, the pony is far more likely to work. In the case of donating my primary, I can retrieve my Octopus from my right shoulder. If it's not there (caught under my BC or tank etc.) I can use the pony if necessary and still find and switch to my Octo. I'm not doing hero technical dives here. In caves, wrecks, just plain deep or otherwise demanding dives smart buddies usually operate nearly hand in glove, staying w/in arms reach if at all possible. The situation I'm talking about I'm in 30 to maybe 120 feet, poking around reefs or maybe wreck EXTERIORS. Buddies often get distance between them or get absorbed in something and loose track of each other for a moment (I often loose my buddy just to discover he is 4' away over my head or right under me). To have a safety backup system that requires near instantaneous access to my buddy is just insane to me. I am trying desperately to avoid the instantaneous NEED of a buddy. At the same time, if another gets into trouble, (one w/out a pony?) I want 1st to be able to personally survive aiding him, and 2nd be able to successfully aid him. (When I'm w/ my sons it's the other way around--they gotta live no matter what happens to me) I like knowing that if my primary fails, I can immediately access my pony BEFORE trying to figure out what went wrong. Rather it's OOA, freeflow, or a rolled off valve, I can check it in relaxed conditions while breathing off the pony instead of while holding my breath looking for my buddy. I think and work better while breathing. You can drown amazingly fast.
Again, if anyone here can see a problem w/ my logic I will first wince at the hit to my ego, and then be eternally gratefull.
You got past me Brau whilst I was typing my epistle!
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Mark, you said "if there is a flaw...you're probably not going to like my next suggestion...but here goes. Before you dive check that the "pony" (it's really a stage in that configuration) is full, charge the regulator, then turn it off. In the event of a failure of your primary gas delivery system you want to be 100% sure that there is gas in the stage. Stick the reg in your mouth and turn on the stage. This should take all of 3 seconds.
If the pony is mounted on your back, and you don't have acces to the valve nor can you read the spg, how can you be sure it didn't all bubble away due to some leak in the first stage?"
Point well taken. My pony valve at present is my most INACCESSABLE valve. Not knowing the gas is there at any given moment is a real weakness. Do you think one could sling and necklace? The necklace would need to be breakaway and the hose maybe longer. My rationale for the pony being on the necklace is in my other post.
You are focused mostly on using the pony to aid others and I'm looking at mostly to aid me and prevent me from attacking you for your airI look at me as the weak link. To be honest, I have meticulosly maintained gear and not the least "accident" prone. My chances of giving aid are probably greater than needing it (I have good consumption rates and often carry more air than average). Is there a way to satisfy both of our criteria Brau? (I still don't know how to use enhanced mode to post--if this look weird, well...)
Braunbehrens
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I totally understand your desire to have a working reg hanging on a necklace....the necklace is a great idea, and it is where my backup is located. However, I think it's a lot less convoluted to have the necklace reg attached to your main 1st stage, and the pony slung in front. The reg is held to the bottle with surgical tubing and a single motion will bring it to you.
I suppose you could have the pony slung and still use a necklace, but now you've got all these hoses everywhere, and it's harder to donate, etc. etc.
I really like the fact that the stage is completely modular, and that it is visible at all times.
Plus you'll look really cool...very tek ;-)
Maybe try it once in a pool to see how it feels...if you can get someone to let you try a longhose setup with a slung pony, I think you'd appreciate the elegance and function of the system.
Maybe something to think about. It's always a difficult decision to change something that we know works. In this sport, you don't want to be at 100 fsw and go "oh wait, this isn't going to work, that guy on the net was full of it!"
I suppose you could have the pony slung and still use a necklace, but now you've got all these hoses everywhere, and it's harder to donate, etc. etc.
I really like the fact that the stage is completely modular, and that it is visible at all times.
Plus you'll look really cool...very tek ;-)
Maybe try it once in a pool to see how it feels...if you can get someone to let you try a longhose setup with a slung pony, I think you'd appreciate the elegance and function of the system.
Maybe something to think about. It's always a difficult decision to change something that we know works. In this sport, you don't want to be at 100 fsw and go "oh wait, this isn't going to work, that guy on the net was full of it!"
Scuba_Vixen
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Seems like a little slip of logic there, just for the detail oriented. The argument seems to centered on "who is the pony most likely to be used for", one's self, or another diver in need. I would suggest that it be primarily for self rescue. (take care of yourself to be able to help a buddy) I really like the necklace idea, and donate the reg from my mouth, but you kinda need a long hose for that to be really effective. For my rec setup, I use a 19 with a Reef Scuba X-Bracket (holds the pony on the main tank using the bc's camband) and keep the pony 2nd where you'd expect the octo, easy to use, hand off, or to be grabbed away. (air2 on my bc also) I have an octo length hose and swivel on the pony 2nd as well, keeps the hose closer by my side and more comfortable to use, and easier to donate. I also have the mini size spg on the pony and wear it over my left shoulder so it's there by my bc inflator, easy to see at all times. I mount the pony on the right side of the main tank, and balance it with a weight in the left trim pocket at the back of the bc. I never dive without it, and never needed to use it. I hope it's my one piece of gear I'll NEVER need, and ALWAYS have.
Braunbehrens
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Actually most OOA situations aren't really OOA. Also, you can inflate the BC orally, or simply not dump as you go up. My point was simply that if someone is panicking you may not want to get too close because they might do something that would get you both killed.
I know the pony on the back is a popular setup, and I have dived it like that. However, once I started slinging it I much preferred that method.
Now I just dive doubles in those situations.
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