What should I know about your gear?

[bane51031]

also check too see that buckles are not obscured by knives that are zip tied over the buckle or other items that may impede with a proper release, I had one guy in my I.E. that had a knife zip tied over the buckle was a b*&($ too release, I didn't have the opportunity too look over his gear as we rotated in the water....

 

[H2O 70]

I'm not sure what the benefit of that approach is.

It is easy to let go from a standard rescue hold at any point in the ascent - remember, you're using the rescued BC for buoyancy, so he will make his way to the surface in all cases.
On the other hand, once the rescued diver has been transformed in a shooting bag, there is no hope of recovery.

Even if at some point you choose to send the rescued on its way alone to the surface (a reasonable option in case of deco obligations), why not do so as close to the surface as possible?

Compared to shooting from the bottom, it doesn't negatively impact your own deco obligations, gives you more time to assess the rescued condition, doesn't impact the rescued time to the surface too much and seriously limits its risk of AGE.

@H20 70: Thanks for your response. The situation being considered is dire, no question. It's an interesting rescue effort to ponder. FWIW, I had similar thoughts to what ptyx articulated.

Could you please elaborate on the reason for making the distinction between finding the diver with the regulator in mouth vs. out of mouth? My guess is that there is a higher probability that: (1) the diver just recently stopped breathing and/or (2) the diver's airway is protected.

I still think that the best course of action when finding a non-breathing, unconscious diver with reg not in mouth would be to do a prompt (60 ft/min) ascent with the victim to the surface. Shooting him to the surface unaccompanied may save about 1 min, but without you at the surface to yell and get the attention of others, it may be another minute before they realize that the victim is now at the surface. Precious time is lost. Unless there's an issue that I'm overlooking, I still think the best course of action is to accompany the victim to the surface.

Personally, I've already decided that I will not burden myself with a deco obligation during a rescue operation simply because it forces me have to make even tougher decisions once the victim is located. If I barely tripped into deco during the ascent, then I'd still most likely choose to accompany the victim to the surface. My Suunto computer uses a conservative algorithm, and I'd be willing to accept the minimal DCS risk.

I'm going to try to respond to the two at once.

The benefit is possibly time and not putting two at risk. I'm just going to say it. Victim is dead. Secure the body and begin a slow and controlled ascent. Attach reel and make the body positive. Body is on its way. I have control of the body via the reel. It isn't going to drift away. I make my controlled ascent and 30fpm. I'm pretty convinced I'm never going to go faster than that once I break the 60ft mark. The hope is someone on the boat with notice a body popping up and come for assistance. If they don't, well when I get there I can yell for assistance so there is no real time lost, only the possible time gained.

Bubbletrouble you answered why the reg in and reg out is important. If the reg is out of their mouth then there is a good chance that their lungs have water. If the reg is in, there is a good chance that their airway is intact.

If the person can get to better medical aide 1 minute faster, well then that is 10% more chance in their favor.

The reason this came up in my rescue class is a lot of us in the group dive off of NC. A lot of our favorite wrecks are 100-115ft to the sand. Some are deeper. Sure if I found a diver as stated above on the roof of the top deck of the USS Spar, I'd swim them up myself. I find them off the bow of the U-352. We'll they being shot up.

Also, some of us come from a military background. We were always trained to do what was least likely to kill you. You may have a victim with a spinal cord injury, but they are still being shot at, you don't stabilize them there. You grab them and run. They may be paralyzed, but they are alive.

So ptyx, why do you think there is no hope of recovery if they are transformed into a Polaris missile? Which by the way a body popping out of the water may help get the attention of the boat.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

If the person can get to better medical aide 1 minute faster, well then that is 10% more chance in their favor.

Being able to initiate an emergency response faster would be better. I agree.

The reason this came up in my rescue class is a lot of us in the group dive off of NC. A lot of our favorite wrecks are 100-115ft to the sand. Some are deeper. Sure if I found a diver as stated above on the roof of the top deck of the USS Spar, I'd swim them up myself. I find them off the bow of the U-352. We'll they being shot up.

I'm unfamiliar with the wreck sites in NC. Is the top deck of the Spar at a depth of 50 - 60 fsw? Is the U-352 sitting in sand at a depth of 115 fsw?
If so, it appears that the depth you find the non-breathing, unconscious diver with no reg in mouth determines whether you plan to shoot him to the surface or accompany him to the surface.
50 - 60 fsw: accompany him to the surface
100 - 115 fsw: shoot him to the surface
(For simplicity's sake, we'll restrict the discussion to a rescue occurring at recreational depths with the rescuer not going into deco.)

Also, some of us come from a military background. We were always trained to do what was least likely to kill you. You may have a victim with a spinal cord injury, but they are still being shot at, you don't stabilize them there. You grab them and run. They may be paralyzed, but they are alive.

And yet as a person involved in an underwater rescue, I'd argue that your thought process should be different from the military mindset you describe. We should assume that the victim has a solid chance of being resuscitated given timely medical attention. The point of contention here is how to achieve that with the least amount of irreparable damage to the victim.

Given the circumstances, I still think that shooting the victim to the surface from 100-115 fsw is not the best course of action. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this rescue scenario, though. It's been a good thought exercise.

 

[101recon]

If I run into one that needs rescuing, and nobody else is around, I'll do the best I can. One of my surgical professors told me once, "I may not be the best surgeon this patient could have for this condition, but I'm the best one he has right now." And you proceed on that basis.

If you dive in an area where you run into a lot of dry suit, or long hose, or doubles, or rebreather divers, you might want to strike up a conversation with one of them and ask about configuration-specific assistance or rescue procedures.

Very good advise.And yes,I have already been "chatting" with the local veterans.Fortunately,there are a lot of local more experienced divers with gear that runs the gamut from drysuits to rebreathers.I was hoping to reduce the number of redundant questions with this thread.
BTW I love the Borg cupcake.A true oxymoron. If you ever want to see the quarries and lakes of central NC let me know.I'll dive with you.

I reread the OP and came up with some ascent specific points regarding drysuits FWIW:

If someone has a neoprene neckseal and you do not vent soon enough on ascent you can potentially blow out the neoprene in such a way that it will not reseal properly and cause flooding. This will also impact the DS's ability to retain air on the surface.

I may have a pee valve attached to a taped and glued condom catheter. Please be kind and disconnect it before ripping my unconscious body from my drysuit. It won't kill me true, but there is such a thing as "quality of life" to think about.

Also my drysuit shoulder vent doesn't really drain that fast and is one reason I avoid using my DS for primary bouyancy control. That isn't really something you need to know though so forget I posted that. Mainly concern yourself with the Pee valve.

Noted....Well noted indeed.

Thanks again to those who answered my original question.I've learned a lot about rescuing a drysuit diver that I would have never considered.
I take it that a drysuit is pretty much the only unfamiliar piece of dive gear I might encounter in a rescue that would "significantly" affect the ascent.(Open to debate of course)

As for the "off topic" conversation,please feel free to continue.I find it interesting,and I believe my original question has been answered.

 

[DaleC]

I was trained as an EMT-A and worked in the field for about 7 years (you were looking for medical training) and I would not presume anyone so dead as to shoot them to the surface like a polaris missile. I just don't see the risk in bringing someone up in a controlled fashion. I see minimal risk to the diver and myself doing a straight forward ascent from a recreational no deco dive and a more than moderate risk in shooting them up without control.

The idea of the reel sounds good in theory but unless you are anchored to the bottom you won't be able to control them anyways so you might as well just say you're shooting them up.

Trying to estimate their life expectancy by the minutes of respiration cessation elapsed also sounds good in theory but in the real world you would most likely not have such a defined time table to work with and by the time you did the calculations you could be half way to the surface anyways. In the field we would not choose who to offer life saving measures to - we may have thought them useless but our job was not to pronounce.

I think at the base of this plan of action (shooting the victime up) is a lack of confidence in the ability for the rescuer to control ascent of an unconscious diver. The solution in my mind, would be to practice the skill a few times with a buddy till one gets a feel for how easy/hard it would be. If you use the victims BC you will be negatively bouyant yourself and if (worse case scenario) the ascent turned into a runaway you could still release the victim and be able to remain at depth yourself.

This of course is based on recreational dive profiles and not deco dives (they have their own rules) and also not for a discovered diver who has obviously been on the bottom for awhile.

Just my 2CW to add to the discussion and not meant as a criticism.

 

[ptyx]

The benefit is possibly time and not putting two at risk.

If the person can get to better medical aide 1 minute faster, well then that is 10% more chance in their favor.

So ptyx, why do you think there is no hope of recovery if they are transformed into a Polaris missile? Which by the way a body popping out of the water may help get the attention of the boat.

It looks like we're working on different assumptions.

Mine are:

• A properly executed rescue ascent does not endanger the rescuer. I'm not talking about violating deco obligation, other unusual factors or doing the missile yourself, but doing a controlled ascent at reasonable speed.
• Although getting to the surface fast matters, the ascent time is negligible compared to the total rescue time. Identifying the issue at depth, gathering buddies, getting the boat aware of the situation and actually getting the rescued on the boat is what takes time.
• Only victims with no pulse should ever be sent to the surface the Polaris way. This takes extra time to assess at depth. The extra time spent doing that is better spent starting the rescue ascent immediately.
• AGE and barotraumas are serious. Even if "they can be cured" on an otherwise healthy victim, I'd assume (but I'm not a doctor) that combined with drowning/cardiac arrest/whatever happened they can seriously compromise resuscitation.

Because of that, I think the risk of AGE or transforming a 'simply inconscious' diver in a body far outweighs the benefits of getting to the boat 1 minute earlier.

I'm not saying Polaris isn't an option - just that it should be a very last resort option.

 

[vladimir]

I was trained as an EMT-A and worked in the field for about 7 years (you were looking for medical training) and I would not presume anyone so dead as to shoot them to the surface like a polaris missile. I just don't see the risk in bringing someone up in a controlled fashion. I see minimal risk to the diver and myself doing a straight forward ascent from a recreational no deco dive and a more than moderate risk in shooting them up without control.

The idea of the reel sounds good in theory but unless you are anchored to the bottom you won't be able to control them anyways so you might as well just say you're shooting them up.

Trying to estimate their life expectancy by the minutes of respiration cessation elapsed also sounds good in theory but in the real world you would most likely not have such a defined time table to work with and by the time you did the calculations you could be half way to the surface anyways. In the field we would not choose who to offer life saving measures to - we may have thought them useless but our job was not to pronounce.

I think at the base of this plan of action (shooting the victime up) is a lack of confidence in the ability for the rescuer to control ascent of an unconscious diver. The solution in my mind, would be to practice the skill a few times with a buddy till one gets a feel for how easy/hard it would be. If you use the victims BC you will be negatively bouyant yourself and if (worse case scenario) the ascent turned into a runaway you could still release the victim and be able to remain at depth yourself.

This of course is based on recreational dive profiles and not deco dives (they have their own rules) and also not for a discovered diver who has obviously been on the bottom for awhile.

Just my 2CW to add to the discussion and not meant as a criticism.

Thank you Dale. It might be worth emphasizing that when H2O 70 first floated the reel-aided-Polaris rescue technique here:

One debate that we had back and forth in the class was what to do with a non-breathing conscienceless diver at depth that didn't have a regulator in their mouth. Book says you bring them up by inflating their BC and controlling their ascent to the surface. Consensus of our group would be to hook a dive reel to them and if their BC inflated, shoot them to the surface. For all practical purposes they are dead anyway. Someone on the surface will hopefully get to them sooner with more life saving equipment or you're attached to them and you can make a safe ascent. If they were OOG, attach a lift bag to them, your dive reel and shoot them on up.

he didn't restrict it to situations where the rescuer had a deco obligation or scores of voracious predators to contend with. I am sure we can all conjure up dire circumstances that would render a normal rescue ill-advised, but, as Dale points out, absent these complications, the prescribed technique of accompanying the victim to the surface is overwhelmingly preferred and would not be an unduly risky undertaking for a properly trained diver.