What should I have done?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, I would somewhat disagree with you on this. In any training dive the real emergency always trumps the simulated/training emergency.

One option for Peter as the "Odd man out" or a better discription might be "the diver with the greater situational awareness" is that is is in his right to go to the divers, terminate the drill and thumb the dive.

I understand where you are coming from on more advanced dives where the option to punch out is either not available or inadvisable but this was neither.

I know I would think harshly of myself if I was in a situation where a buddy got hurt or had a near miss, but gosh darn it, I successfully completed that valve drill!

I don't think you're disagreeing with me at all ... I suspect you're not understanding what I said.

Certainly the real emergency trumps the training emergency ... that's a given.

What I'm saying is don't waste time stopping the drill. Under the circumstances, that would only increase the potential for confusion, and delay the ability to render aid to the person in need. Communicate to the two guys sharing air that you are missing a diver and are going to her aid. Then go.

Treat this like there was two emergencies happening. One was being taken care of, the other was not. So Peter should have been taking care of the other one ... no questions asked.

Don't make distinctions in this case between the "real" emergency and the "training" emergency ... there's nothing to be gained by stopping the exercise, and a potential liability in doing so. Take the path that addresses the problem most expeditiously.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rick Inman]

Don't make distinctions in this case between the "real" emergency and the "training" emergency ... there's nothing to be gained by stopping the exercise, and a potential liability in doing so. Take the path that addresses the problem most expeditiously.

And really, in many cases, you might not know for absolute if the "emergency" is real or a drill.... and who cares?

(Nice thread, BTW, Peter. Must run in the family. )

 

[KMD]

I don't think you're disagreeing with me at all ... I suspect you're not understanding what I said.

Certainly the real emergency trumps the training emergency ... that's a given.

What I'm saying is don't waste time stopping the drill. Under the circumstances, that would only increase the potential for confusion, and delay the ability to render aid to the person in need. Communicate to the two guys sharing air that you are missing a diver and are going to her aid. Then go.

Treat this like there was two emergencies happening. One was being taken care of, the other was not. So Peter should have been taking care of the other one ... no questions asked.

Don't make distinctions in this case between the "real" emergency and the "training" emergency ... there's nothing to be gained by stopping the exercise, and a potential liability in doing so. Take the path that addresses the problem most expeditiously.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ok I see we are on basically the same page. Just different meathods of communication, end result is the same. Communicate your intentions to the two doing the drill and then surface to help the other buddy. When I talk about ending the drill, I would indicate to them to cut the drill, then give a thumbs and finally point to me and wave bye bye to them. All this can be accomplished in about 4 or 5 seconds. No more time then it would take to tell them that a buddy is lost and they should pair up. In addition you have given them clear direction that "fun-time" is over and they need to surface expeditiously.

Though I disagree with you on stopping the drill. You dont know if you will need more people on the surface to deal with the situation. For all we know you the person could be having a heart attack and needs CPR. Two or three sets of hands will end up being more effective than one.

I really disagree with you on not making distinctions between a training "emergency" and real emergency. To me there are several important differences. The two most important would be that a training emergency is not life-threatening and a training emergency can be stopped at any time. A real emergency cannot.

In accident analysis we always hear about breaking the chain of incidents in an accident. For that dive right then and there, what was more important, a practice session of a skill be completed, or dealing with the ongoing incident? If everything turns out ok (as it did in this case) then everybody has a good laugh and they go back down to do the skill over. If it was something serious, then you have the entire team concentrating on resolving the issue.

 

[wreck.reel]

Why do you guys think I'm going to say anything amusing here?

This dive pointed out how unworkable teams of four are, and how artificial skills dives are.

Through the whole dive, there were issues with who was in charge, and how to keep track of one's assigned teammate when the person directing the dive was a member of the other team. The descents and ascents weren't terribly well executed for this reason.

I did find it interesting that, when I blew my 20 foot stop and ended up on the surface (a long story having to do with kicking myself out of BOTH drysuit boots and effectively rendering myself finless), nobody appeared to notice or come looking for me. Peter clearly noticed I was gone, but stayed with his assigned teammate (appropriate, I think); my teammate didn't notice I was gone, nor did the person directing the dive.

Failures of protocol, failures of situational awareness, failures of buoyancy control . . . Shall we go on? This is why we DO training dives, because people are going to make mistakes, so you make them when you're shallow and the stakes are low.

In a real dive, you have teammates, and they're YOUR teammates, and nobody else is on your radar screen. The dive leader would have signalled OOA to his teammate (Peter) and not to mine. My teammate would have come up to make sure I was okay. Problem solved. It was the artificiality of the drill situation that even raised the question of what should have been done.

Im glad you didnt get hurt.
I think you where the one who had the bigest failure in this dive. At your level of training that should never had happend. Buoyancy is the most important skill.
The next failure was your budy not keeping an eye on you.Your husband failed for not calling the dive to see what happend to you. The good thing was that no one got hurt and you all could learn from it.

 

[TSandM]

I DID have the biggest failure on the dive! And you're right, I should be past such things. But I knew when I started pushing the edge of the envelop to move up faster that I might overshoot. I would have controlled the overshoot and stopped if I had not kicked out of both of my boots. I did not expect that, and there really isn't anything effective you can do about it in that situation.

 

[Vayu]

I think the distinction between a real dive and a training dive is artificial. You could still die on a training dive.

A dive is a dive. A real dive is anytime we are underwater. Alot of people die on training dives and when with instructors. This is why it is important to be in control of where you are underwater at any moment.

 

[LAJim]

Skills dives are hard and artificial. Everybody learned something. If you haven't been "killed" on a simple skills dive you haven't done one. GUE trained divers are safe and understand how unsimple the simplest things can become.

 

[KMD]

I DID have the biggest failure on the dive! And you're right, I should be past such things. But I knew when I started pushing the edge of the envelop to move up faster that I might overshoot. I would have controlled the overshoot and stopped if I had not kicked out of both of my boots. I did not expect that, and there really isn't anything effective you can do about it in that situation.

I wouldnt really beat yourself up to much though. That is why we train in shallow water... because it is much safter and the stake are lower.

Guess where the tech 1 guys start their class? 30 feet of water
Guess where the tech 2 guys start their class? 30 feet of water
Guess where the cave guys start their class? 30 feet of water

Notice a patern here?

Lynne, Do you use fin keepers?

 

[TSandM]

Yes, I do use fin keepers, and they've worked fine for me for quite a while. But I just started using the 4th Element socks, which are bulky and kind of loose, and I'm wondering if that had anything to do with this happening. When I upended, I got a little extra air in my feet, making the boots looser, and with the loose socks, I think that was enough to allow me to kick the boots off. I can promise you I'll be VERY careful before I go feet up again!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Ok I see we are on basically the same page. Just different meathods of communication, end result is the same. Communicate your intentions to the two doing the drill and then surface to help the other buddy. When I talk about ending the drill, I would indicate to them to cut the drill, then give a thumbs and finally point to me and wave bye bye to them. All this can be accomplished in about 4 or 5 seconds. No more time then it would take to tell them that a buddy is lost and they should pair up. In addition you have given them clear direction that "fun-time" is over and they need to surface expeditiously.

Though I disagree with you on stopping the drill. You dont know if you will need more people on the surface to deal with the situation. For all we know you the person could be having a heart attack and needs CPR. Two or three sets of hands will end up being more effective than one.

I really disagree with you on not making distinctions between a training "emergency" and real emergency. To me there are several important differences. The two most important would be that a training emergency is not life-threatening and a training emergency can be stopped at any time. A real emergency cannot.

In accident analysis we always hear about breaking the chain of incidents in an accident. For that dive right then and there, what was more important, a practice session of a skill be completed, or dealing with the ongoing incident? If everything turns out ok (as it did in this case) then everybody has a good laugh and they go back down to do the skill over. If it was something serious, then you have the entire team concentrating on resolving the issue.

You need to consider the training of the people involved ... what makes you think they would continue the drill once the team was broken? Why waste time "managing" their situation, when there's one above you that requires your immediate attention?

OK ... so if you're gonna manage calling the drill and ascending together, do you spend the time waiting for them to (a) understand and respond to your signal, (b) pass the shared reg back to its owner and go back on individual regs, and (c) signalling to begin the ascent? You think that's gonna take more than a few seconds?

I'd prefer to think that someone with T1 training and someone who's passed Fundies and dives with T1 trained divers would know enough to manage all of that without me. I've got higher priorities at that point ... namely a diver with an unknown situation that might require immediate assistance. Seconds count in cases like that.

(Edit) ... I am beginning to suspect our differences boil down to the fact that you're trained to manage a team of like-trained divers, while I'm trained to manage students. Perspectives and priorities differ in those two cases.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)