Scuba:I could be wrong here, from a legal issue interpretation, but I believe it is irresponsible and contrary to professional conduct to voluntarily place someone at risk, even when permission is given by client. Any lawyers want to comment? I understand no one wants increased liability. This ultimately has a trickle effect on everyone. I think it was you who pointed it out.
Is it too much to ask that charters take divers to an appropriate dive site based on C-card qualification, log book, or personal knowledge? And to have guides follow the same basic principles. In fact, this is the core of our disagreement, I believe by their actions they have in fact assumed some responsibility. They just don't want to be held accountable - at all, when everyone contributed to a bad decision I know, I know, it costs money. A diver turned down for a trip is money not made, is the position of some. While others do great without the need to compromise integrity.
Its a fine balancing act holding liability at bay, and as a result having to defend questionably negligent behavior on the part of a few, that if allowed to fester could pose a bigger problem. Again, abstract, usually not black and white case, and pointing no fingers at anyone here.
Specifically in regards to the incident being discussed:
I say the divers didnt do too bad on this one, with the exception of perhaps to have preferably chosen to distrust expert professional advise and skip the dive. Again, people do rely to varying extent on expert professional advise. Kind of their reason for being, otherwise, what good are pro's for? What do we pay them for? Guidance is one of the reasons.
I also say the pros and/or leaders screwed this one up, to use a slang expression - royally.
We appear to have an insurmountable difference of opinion over the question of assigning responsibility. Unless a new twist emerges here, I dont think re-stating essentially the same points from a new perpective is going to change your minds, or mine. Its been a good discussion. Feel free to continue to express your point or refute mine.
You've contributed a concise and to-the-point summation of the central issues in the discussion, which I like even better because your impression of who scewed up worse is similar to mine . Obviously, we do not have all the facts, but this *impression* is certainly warranted by the information given (again, it's good to check the original, instructor's area "Dangerous Dive or...thread).
Those panicked at the mention of regulation, please do review what I actually wrote. First and formeost, I expect governments to take some *responsibility* in return for the tax dollars they already collect from our sport. Such as access steps at really popular dive sites like the Victoria BC breakwater, where one of our club divers broke her foot. Are any of you against the regular inspection of dive boats, compressors and operating equipment?
Complusory reporting of serious accidents/injuries is surely also a good idea. And I used airline briefings simply as an example of a regulation checklist- based briefing. Of course our eyes glass over after too many of these, but don't you also make a note of the nearest exit? Items like current at depth and bailout procedures could be similar.
As far as the expiry of certification is concerned, isn't the need for some such system pretty obvious for aging/very infrequent divers (and drivers?) And not all that onerous. There are already refresher courses of various types, which could easily be formalized (much like the 1 day refresher/relicencing course First Aid/CPR course one must take every three years to keep[ one's certification. I could have saved a lot of time and money by continuing to use my 1968 OW Cert instead of doing it all over again in 1981, and yet again in 2002,,,and also might not be here to iritate you all! ;-}
P.S. I'd be offended by some of the angry assumptions about my attitudes, dive ability, fitness, etc. if they weren't so far off the mark. Just for the record, I work out hard and regularly to stay in shape (though I can't help my age), and my little family would give you an earful about how "fanatical" I am about equipment cleaning and maintenance, pool and OW prep and research before dive trips, as well as continual training and upgrading of skills. I'm no expert, but do my best to dive safely. I've been on many unguided dives. I've had a few mishaps, but always found a safe way out. If I screw up, I take reponsibility for it, in diving or any other time. BUT I do expect fair warning of dangerous or pecular conditions and situations and always appreciate any extra help, guidance or care that DM's and operators may provide.