What makes one cave dive "bigger" than the other?

[Bennno]

It'd be cool to be able to get a number that tells me how much bigger the next dive is....maybe helping temper some complacency.

I don't know what number you're looking for but complacency can kill you regardless of the 'bigness' of the dive.

 

[kensuf]

If complacency is a concern, and that's why you're trying to determine what's a big dive, then the answer is anytime you're underwater is a big dive; I watched a guy drown in 15' of water last Saturday in the Ginnie Basin (I saved him and we revived him, but he drowned before I initially got to him).

There's no room for complacency in technical diving.

Kudos to you for being self-aware enough to realize you're getting complacent on the "easy" dives. Now correct that problem.

 

[victorzamora]

I think complacency was a poor choice of words. A reg in my mouth puts me in "focus" mode, at least I try my hardest for it to happen. I prep for what's currently a pinnacle dive in the same way I prep for an Intro dive, just with less gear. I was taught in class to do a specific routine when gearing up, and I've done it on nearly every dive since Cavern.

There's a term called "Engagement" used by IANTD France that is used to compare the size of OW Tech dives. It's P(ata)*sqrt(bottom time). My hope was to figure out a good way of doing that for myself, but applying it to cave diving.

 

[lv2dive]

So, my thoughts in reading this thread were multi fold:

1. It is different for everyone, and the definition for each individual can change significantly over a few years if they are diving a lot.
2. Because 1), why does it matter?
3. Because one *should* prepare for all dives the same, why does it matter?

EDIT: I really just read the initial post and Ken's post before I started my post I realize now all of the above has already been covered. . I'm going to leave it in for context for the rest of the post...

I realized for me anyway, #3 is the imortant answer. I do prepare for a dive with 3-4 hours of deco the same as a dive with 4-5 hours, but the difference in those two dives is the experience I have built up to the point to know my body and brain can handle 5 hours of deco.

So to answer your question, a big dive for me is one that is at the edges or right outside my experience level in one or more of the following: depth, duration, restrictions Etc. The first time I do it it's a big dive, the next time it's a dive to be respected (ok all dives are to be respected but let's not get too literal).

What I consider big dives *in general* are the exploration dives and I am not really interested in ten-twelve hour or more dive times. Mostly I leave these to the "big guys" like my boyfriend and other goys working on finding new cave. I stick to dives less than six hours (this year I have not dived much at all, that will be changing no later than 2017!).

So judging for oneself, in short, hours of deco is ONE fairly good judge of the complexity of a dive, another is length of dive which can be impacted by it navigationability (is that even word) which can be an issue for different reasons in n Fl and Mexico (including vis and restrictions). No one size fits all answer I think kens first response said it best.

I think complacency was a poor choice of words. A reg in my mouth puts me in "focus" mode, at least I try my hardest for it to happen. I prep for what's currently a pinnacle dive in the same way I prep for an Intro dive, just with less gear.
There's a term called "Engagement" used by IANTD France that is used to compare the size of OW Tech dives. It's P(ata)*sqrt(bottom time). My hope was to figure out a good way of doing that for myself, but applying it to cave diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

o to answer your question, a big dive for me is one that is at the edges or right outside my experience level in one or more of the following: depth, duration, restrictions Etc. The first time I do it it's a big dive, the next time it's a dive to be respected (ok all dives are to be respected but let's not get too literal).

This to me makes complete sense and points out the individuality of the term.

Let's say I go to Eagle's Nest, the supposed Everest of cave diving. Let's say I don open circuit doubles and some deco bottles before going to the normal limits of that equipment. In terms of the cave diving aspect of it, it would not be a big dive for me. No restrictions, no jumps, no gaps, no circuits--just follow the main line for a while, turn around, and head back. The dive will also require trimix and decompression, but, again, nothing outside of what I have done many times before. This would not be a big dive for me.

For others, like the father and son two years ago at Christmas, what I just described would be absolutely HUGE, far beyond their training, experience, ability, and equipment. The should not have considered it.

In contrast, the two people who died there a couple of weeks ago were doing a dive that for me would be absolutely HUGE, far beyond my training, experience, ability, and equipment. I would not consider it.

 

[Bennno]

There's a term called "Engagement" used by IANTD France that is used to compare the size of OW Tech dives. It's P(ata)*sqrt(bottom time). My hope was to figure out a good way of doing that for myself, but applying it to cave diving.

So, if you had such a 'score' how would it help you?

A rating or scoring system would even be counter productive in cave diving IMHO. You don't want to encourage people to start chasing 'higher scores'.
The issue, compared to other sports, is that the dives you do don't necessarily reflect your skill level. In climbing you wont be able to climb a high level rout unless you have the skill and are fit enough. In diving, virtually anyone can strap on a breather and do a 'big' cave dive as long as you have the dough to pay for it.... and if nothing goes wrong, you will probably make it out alive.

 

[lermontov]

Sure there is! I've got the loudest truck in my neighborhood, I once scored 4 touch downs in one game, I have a 'hand' like a burmese python and I do big a$$ dives...

what does a burmese python look like?

 

[lermontov]

So, if you had such a 'score' how would it help you?

A rating or scoring system would even be counter productive in cave diving IMHO. You don't want to encourage people to start chasing 'higher scores'.
The issue, compared to other sports, is that the dives you do don't necessarily reflect your skill level. In climbing you wont be able to climb a high level rout unless you have the skill and are fit enough. In diving, virtually anyone can strap on a breather and do a 'big' cave dive as long as you have the dough to pay for it.... and if nothing goes wrong, you will probably make it out alive.

not necassarliy anyone can put on crampons and rope and go and try it -one of the purposes of graded climbing routes is so that you dont bite off more than your can chew but it also allows you to incrementally increase your risk/skill/goals threshold.
there are already calibrations of sorts - certification and training requirements on some trips, signs with skull and crossbones - I'm not a cave diver but are there any sort of guide books that indicate difficulty or skill level reqd for certain caves.

On our local wreck we have deck plans colour coded to help divers ascertain where they shouldn't go e.g. yellow OW, green is AOW, yellow adv wreck etc white unexplored or highly hazardous -its a guideline

 

[bamafan]

I'm not a cave diver but are there any sort of guide books that indicate difficulty or skill level reqd for certain caves.

There is no rating system for caves. There is Cave Atlas and a few maps of some of the more popular caves but even with that there are advanced dives in what many people consider tourist caves. Just about anyone can do the Grand Traverse in Peacock but the number of people who can make it to Baptizing sink are few and far between. Depth greatly increases complexity of the dive as well as distance and tunnel size / composition. There are just to many variables and sadly a lack of people respecting their abilities. Even if they don't kill themselves they often damage the cavesbecause they are clueless. Money can buy you the equipment to make nearly any dive out there but it won't buy you the ability or experience to do it. Sadly many instructors and shops don't care and are pushing scooters and rebreathers to divers who are no where near ready for them.

 

[kensuf]

So, if you had such a 'score' how would it help you?

A rating or scoring system would even be counter productive in cave diving IMHO. You don't want to encourage people to start chasing 'higher scores'.
The issue, compared to other sports, is that the dives you do don't necessarily reflect your skill level. In climbing you wont be able to climb a high level rout unless you have the skill and are fit enough. In diving, virtually anyone can strap on a breather and do a 'big' cave dive as long as you have the dough to pay for it.... and if nothing goes wrong, you will probably make it out alive.

this.