What is the point of certifications?

[Stoo]

I ask the question because I know that I know how to dive safely, and I respect the restrictions my training has imposed.

The "over-certification" of diving is a relatively new phenomenon, created by PADI. When I learned how to dive, there was basically one certification. It was quite thorough, and the rest you figured out on your own and with more experienced mentors. I went from my NAUI "Basic" certification to an AI to Instructor without 24 courses in between.

Then PADI figured out that by teaching a new diver "just enough" to dive to a certain depth or certain conditions, that they could keep training that same person over and over and over and over and... Well you get the idea. I am constantly amazed at some of the "courses" that are offered. I think it also creates a lot of divers who require constant baby-sitting. I am always amused when I see threads on here with titles like, "I am only PADI OW1 certified... What will happen if i dive to 61'???" (Answer: Take the PADI 61' - 100' course!) I saw this first hand when I went to Utila where my daughter was living. While there, she moved through various courses to get to her Advanced or something, that "certified" her to dive to 100'. On one of our dives, I wandered below 100' and she started to frantically wave at me, pointing at her computer. I thought something was wrong, but it turned out that she was afraid of some mysterious repercussion should she exceed 100'!

Having said that, the PADI way does keep re-engaging the novice/occasional diver and that can't be a bad thing, however it does create a system where the COST associated with getting more advanced certifications is astonishing. I think it's especially good for people who are not confident in their own abilities (perhaps as a result of the over-certifying process) so really only dive while taking a course. (Again, using my daughter as an example, she managed (over the course of six months) to go from uncertified to a Divemaster candidate and had NEVER been diving outside of a course, other than the 20 dives she did with me!) (Rest assured, she left Utila before she completed it, so you need not worry that she's working on a boat someplace!)

Getting back to the original question, of course training and certification is required. Other so-called dangerous sports tend to be less equipment and technically oriented. Using say sky-diving as an example, as long as you know how to pack a 'chute properly, I presume you're good to go. I don't sky-dive, but I assume that in order to rent a chute, you need to prove that you have completed a course... don't you? If PADI expands into the sky-diving business, you will see 14 levels of certification... jumping from a picnic table, jumping from a step ladder, jumping from 3000' , then 3500' and so on... ;-)

The reason that I stopped teaching a few years ago was that I just couldn't get my head around "sort of" teaching someone about diving. I used to run an 8 or 12 week course with hours of class time, hours of pool time, and two full weekends of diving. When people finished one of those programmes, they were real divers who knew how to navigate, dive at night, do some light deco should it be required, how to rescue someone and on and on. And no, not everyone passed, but they were given a ticket to come to the next course for free.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

What is the point of certifications?
Good question?
I guess with a certification people are supposed to have some level of training that says they know what they're doing, but these days I wonder. It might just be a permission slip to go out and get seriously injured or killed.


I know a guy who dives and never was "officially" certified by any agency. He bought a copy of "The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving", did all the excercises and mastered them thoroughly and went diving.
He bought all his gear off ebay and some trinket stuff new, he either gets friends to fill his tanks or just goes in and tells them he's filling them for his boss. There is no law that says you have to be certified to dive.
The only thing you won't be able to do is dive with most dive clubs, off a charter boat, but if you're doing your own stuff then you can do whatever you want.
I also know a bunch of commercial urchin divers that spend hours and hours in cold and rough waters doing their job. They make most sport divers look like weanies. Most of them aren't certified either.

I was thinking about it, you can ride a bicycle on public roads, in traffic, in town, and anywhere except the freeway without a drivers license (which is a type of certification).

Certifications these days are just a door pass. My suggestion to anybody freshly certified: besides the cert go out and find some buddies or mentors that can really show you how to dive.

 

[rhwestfall]

try and drive a high-horsepower car at a drag strip!

One word: Lawyers! (and I am married to one). Our litigious society requires it. I'm certified from a NFP 25 years ago. What i was required to do is a monumental task considered to the "joke" to get a card today......

(yes, bourbon has robbed my conservative self in this post)..... DEAL WITH IT!

Then again, we were taught to accept your limitations, seek assistance if you wanted to go further, and not to blame everyone else if you f-ed up exceeding your limitations.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

try and drive a high-horsepower car at a drag strip!

One word: Lawyers! (and I am married to one). Our litigious society requires it. I'm certified from a NFP 25 years ago. What i was required to do is a monumental task considered to the "joke" to get a card today......

(yes, bourbon has robbed my conservative self in this post)..... DEAL WITH IT!

Then again, we were taught to accept your limitations, seek assistance if you wanted to go further, and not to blame everyone else if you f-ed up exceeding your limitations.

Ah yes, drinking and posting, been there done that.
Do I ever regret any of the stuff I say when I'm under the influence, never! I mean every word of it.

 

[Stoo]

I also know a bunch of commercial urchin divers that spend hours and hours in cold and rough waters doing their job. They make most sport divers look like weanies. Most of them aren't certified either.

Your comment reminded me that at the beginning of my short and unillustrious career as a commercial diver, I landed a job doing UW work in Hamilton Harbour, which was highly polluted, black water then. My job (which started about a month after my open water checkouts) consisted of hanging onto a thick wooden pilon, and drilling holes though it, cutting large "dados" with a pneumatic chainsaw and bolting cross members in place with a pneumatic impact wrench. I was 18, weighed about 160#, and was using power tools in black water, while wearing a wetsuit in 45F water... within days of becoming certified. The REALLY alarming part though, is that I was THE MOST QUALIFIED diver on site. The two other guys weren't even certified. They were construction guys in wetsuits, with tanks on. Part of my job, was to take the tanks to the LDS to get them filled, because I was certified.

Mercifully, most of this diving was in the 5' to 8' range, with the occasional descent to 20', usually to recover a dropped tool. Ugh...

 

[scubastingray]

The "over-certification" of diving is a relatively new phenomenon, created by PADI. When I learned how to dive, there was basically one certification. It was quite thorough, and the rest you figured out on your own and with more experienced mentors. I went from my NAUI "Basic" certification to an AI to Instructor without 24 courses in between.

Then PADI figured out that by teaching a new diver "just enough" to dive to a certain depth or certain conditions, that they could keep training that same person over and over and over and over and... Well you get the idea. I am constantly amazed at some of the "courses" that are offered. I think it also creates a lot of divers who require constant baby-sitting. I am always amused when I see threads on here with titles like, "I am only PADI OW1 certified... What will happen if i dive to 61'???" (Answer: Take the PADI 61' - 100' course!) I saw this first hand when I went to Utila where my daughter was living. While there, she moved through various courses to get to her Advanced or something, that "certified" her to dive to 100'. On one of our dives, I wandered below 100' and she started to frantically wave at me, pointing at her computer. I thought something was wrong, but it turned out that she was afraid of some mysterious repercussion should she exceed 100'!

This.

I understand the OW course, but the fact that everything has a course seems like a bit much. Adding a couple complications shouldn't require a new certification. Want to take photos? Take the photo cert. Want to dive at night? Take the night diving cert.

So often the answer seems to be "get the training for it!" on these forums rather than go get the experience and read up on advice. It seems people are so adverse to learning things themselves.

Obviously some situations are good to learn under others (caves, wreck diving, etc where there is a significantly increased risk), but it's ridiculous how often the answer is to go take a class rather than helpful advice.

 

[rhwestfall]

just liek the days gone by of trades, find a mentor/buddy.... take it slow...

 

[scububa]

My take on it is that certifications are a method to get to a point without having to repeat all the past mistakes.
As a cave diver I have a certain perspective on training. One thing drilled into us is that one of the common elements in tech diving accidents is diving beyond your training. To get a cave cert you have to have a baseline of OW and Cavern (perhaps AOW, too, can't recall). And, you have to demonstrate a basic proficiency to any instructor I am aware of. Then you have to proceed in a progressive fashion in terms of limits to the complexity of diving. They are designed to 'guide' you through stages to gain proficiency and not try to run before you can crawl. You have to subscribe and commit to a "proper" configuration of equipment to receive training. The agencies may vary a bit, but they help refine and maintain standards to help the instructors.
I think the basic principle applies to OW. The idea is to learn to dive at shallower levels where there are more 'outs' if something goes wrong. Then proceed to deeper dives were the risks increase and the 'outs' decrease.
In my case, I am glad to get the knowledge and stand on the shoulders of giants. I wouldn't care to figure out decompression, mixed gas, complexities of DPV diving on my own, potentially making avoidable mistakes that might be the last.
I could have bought a scooter and hit the trigger and gone off into the cave. I am glad I learned to how to handle failures, do all the basic OOA type of things with another buddy on a scooter and gas planning.
So, in my opinion the reason for certification is to leverage the past and minimize the risks. I think it applies to OW as much as it does Deco Procedures.
Certifications present the basic information, just like an auto learners permit. The rest of the education is up to the student to care and follow through with getting better. Some people do and some don't.
I have been diving 11 years and have gotten some level of training on average every year. I didn't do it to collect cards, but because they supported the next level of diving I was interested in. I do agree that some of the certs seem a little over done and I recognize there is an element of money making in it. I'll use EAN and Advanced EAN as an example. And Normoxic and Full Trimix. The principles are the same, so is it really required. Well, I have come to appreciate that they have value in getting you to 'go thru the progression' and really master the lower level before attempting the upper level. Again, I think the principle applies across the board. Maybe it's 'forced' mentorship, which was the foundation of all the early progression of diving.

Just my rambling thoughts.

 

[rhwestfall]

yes, but did you need a card to dive from a boat? take a picture? go past 60'? Identify a fish?Swim around a wreck (not enter)? etc?......

Let us nor forget Zombie Apocalypse.....

 

[rx7diver]

... but it's ridiculous how often the answer is to go take a class rather than helpful advice.

Wasn't always this way! Anyone remember Jim Cobb's tri-mix site? My dive friends and I did a lot of early learning about tri-mix by reading Jim's site and reading the Aquanaut site.

Safe Diving,

rx7diver