captain
Contributor
cerich:
And if you do not have any idea how quickly that "inkling" can come into a divers mind read Deep Decent. Divers who knew that the surface ment a death sentence headed that way anyway.
What is the deepest you can do an OOA?
- Thread starter all4scuba05
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And if you do not have any idea how quickly that "inkling" can come into a divers mind read Deep Decent. Divers who knew that the surface ment a death sentence headed that way anyway.
Soggy
Contributor
fweber:
I did not say that at all. There are many instances where gas sharing would be necessary, despite the best plans and equipment. It is probably the most fundamentally important skill to learn. This does not follow from my reasoning at all.
One event can cause a gas share. To end up with a CESA, you would need a catastrophic loss of gas (or stupidity) while, at the same time your buddy disappeared and your redundant gas supply is gone. That's nuts.
It's not really a skill anyhow. Swim up, exhale along the way. What exactly needs to be practiced?
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If I find myself separated from my buddy I'm not going to wait for an OOA emergency before heading to the surface ... as soon as I realize we've become separated the dive is over. I head to the surface. By prior agreement, my buddy should be doing exactly the same thing.cerich:
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Soggy
Contributor
cerich:
Maybe I can try to explain it better this way...
Whether it is a technical dive or recreational is irrelevant...the conditions that would occur in order to make me bolt to the surface are exactly the same...the very real fear of imminent drowning and death caused by either my own incompetence in dive planning and/or being abandoned by my teammates combined with multiple equipment failures. So, how exactly would the thought process differ between a recreational dive and a technical dive?
gangrel441
Contributor
Soggy:No, it proves that the 'skill' is unnecessary.
The last thing I want on my next decompression dive is to have any inkling that the surface is a viable option, especially when it doesn't need to be. I also have no doubt I would figure the 'skill' out very quickly if I were down at the bottom without anything to breathe.
Your logic is warped. The skill is not a viable option under a given set of circumstances. This is not the same as saying it is not necessary.
On the deco dive, if you somehow catastrophically lose all gas, and have no one in position to support you, it most certainly is an option. Not your only option, not an ideal option, but a LAST option. Sometimes, things boil down to last options. Sorry if you think otherwise, and I sincerely hope that you never find yourself in a position where you NEED a last option.
JeffG
Contributor
Better listen to him Soggy. He is a master diver after all.gangrel441:
Soggy
Contributor
gangrel441:
What you aren't getting is that the circumstances that would have to occur in order to make this necessary are so improbable that the time spent 'learning' the 'skill' is pointless. You are training for the .0001% chance when you could be spending that time training for real problems that actually occur.
I promise, if I ever do find myself completely out of gas with no one around to help me (having lost all my gas in my doubles combined with buddy separation/abandonment), I will know where to find more and how to get it.
OP
all4scuba05
Contributor
dbulmer:All4scuba05,
Soggy has not disrespected anyone - what he states is that to get to the point of having to do a CESA you have gone through a sequence of events that could have been nipped in the bud earlier through appropriate action from both the potential casualty and his/her buddy. The ole adage Prevention is better than cure has been advocated by many a diver on Scubaboard and elsewhere. The CESA is an option but as NWG has already pointed out it's the last option for reasons NWG has already stated.
If you have a good buddy who is aware and communicates regularly, risk is reduced - if you dive with instabuddies then you assume more risk as you are dealing with an unknown factor. It does not mean that an instabuddy is automatically unsafe just that it's more risky until you are more aware of the diver's ability.
On a 90foot wreck I won't be diving with an instabuddy - the option not to dive is always there. I say all this not to chide or chastise but to point out that you can often shape the way Murphy might strike in most cases before he gets a chance to kick arse. Think of it as cheating Murphy
Read post 148. When someone comes on here and states that he who had to do a CESA was at fault because he didn't do what he should've done to prevent it, well that person believes sh_t don't happen unless you ask for it. Hell I could act like him and say," you don't need a backup light because you should learn how to keep the primary from failing or getting lost. You don't need a sausage because you should simply learn how to come up 3 ft from the boat. You don't need an octo because your primary should never break and your buddy should never need it"
That's his attitude and God help him when the sh_t hits the fan in his world.
fweber
Contributor
Soggy:
Come on Soggy! The necessity of gas sharing implies that you've run out of gas, you have none available. For what reason other than skills practice would you be doing so on a recreational dive? At this point, you should have a buddy available for sharing, if you don't........
Anything that could result in the need to gas share could require a CESA if you can't reach that buddy. The only thing you've now thrown in, is"and your redundant gas supply is gone". Many recreational dives are being performed without a SpareAir or Pony/Stage bottle. Why would you add such an equipment bandaid to a problem that does not exist. When, you know that you can reasonable swim UP! A reasonably develop waterperson/diver is not going to decide to overly complicate equipment configuration and start adding additional equipment to make up for this lack of skill on their part. Many would subscribe to developing comfort and skill in the water rather than making up for a lack of it with additional equipment.
On a recreational dive to 80 feet you've determined your rock bottom turn point to be 750 psi. On your next breath you feel an unussually high resistance to inhalation. On the one after that there's not much. Your buddy is ahead and slightly below you working into a current, absolutely insistant on catching that lobster and so maybe not quite as attentive as normal. The only mistake you've made, is not knowing that your gauge is broken. It reads higher pressures just fine but becomes sticky before it reachs 750. Unlikely? Maybe, but I've seen it. In my limited experience I've seen that and I've had two unbooted gauges damaged in the last year(one due to my own clumsiness, the other by another divers tanks that went unnoticed until diving as it happened just before entry after gauge checking with my buddy). The only difference between gas sharing and having no other option than a CESA is whether you reach your buddy or not.
Get real. No one is saying,"don't worry about equipment maintenance, gas sharing, or buddy selection." What most the respondents are saying, is that being practiced with a skill required by all OW courses could keep you from panicing and subsequently turn a potentially desperate situation into a safe outcome from recreational depths.
No problem, enjoy.adza:Gary - that is a brilliant example! Mind if I use it?
Gary D.
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