What is average surface air consumption?

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Rick Murchison:
No... you're trying to make it more complicated than it is again. A volumetric consumption rate is at ambient pressure. What changes with pressure is the mass in each volumetric unit, and therefore the percentage of gas taken from any given tank with each unit of volume.
If my volumetric consumption is .5CFM at the surface it is still .5CFM at 4 ATA. But the pressure drop from the tank will be 4 times as great because there is 4 times as much gas in the same volume.

Thanks. It's hard to express these concepts as clearly as you have.

Guys, Respiratory Minute Volume is a concept that was developed outside of diving. It's a medical/physiological term and you don't get to redefine it arbitrarily to meet your wishes. It's a useful term, but it means what it means: volume of gas breathed over a minute. That's it. You can use different units (SI, Imperial, furlong/firkin/fortnight, whatever), but if you're not expressing volume over time (and nothing else), you're not talking about RMV.

SAC/SCR, on the other hand, appears not to have any broadly accepted definition. I see everything from pressure drop over time to RMV to other things used as its basis. Since we're calling it SURFACE consumption (the "S" in SAC or SCR), I'm going to use it to mean my RMV at the surface. As I descend, my RMV remains fairly constant (lets assume I'm just sitting on a dropping platform), but the mass of gas I'm sucking goes up. At 2 ATA, I'm going to use up the contents of my cylinder in half the time compared with at the surface. That fact doesn't change my RMV *or* my SAC. It DOES change the rate at which pressure in the cylinder drops. In other words, psi/min is NOT a constant, but RMV/SAC are (or could be).

So what would the difference be between RMV and SAC? Not a whole heck of a lot, really. If I breathe 0.63 cf/min on top of Mount Everest, I'll breathe 0.63 cf/min at the bottom of the Marianas Trench (assume constant gas mixture and coma, if you like). The number of gas molecules breathed per minute in each case, though, will be VERY different. I don't have good direct ways of measuring numbers of gas molecules in my cylinder, but I can easily know my depth (or ambient pressure) and the pressure in the cylinder and how it's dropping. This is why some people like to think of SAC as involving PSI over time. It turns out that humans consume gas, not pressure. Our lungs tend to work at the same volumes irrespective of pressure. Knowing your "consumption" in PSI only helps if you know the rate for that particular cylinder size and your particular depth. As noted above, it is NOT a constant.

Knowing a SAC (or RMV) expressed in volume over time makes estimating remaining gas time easy. If I know, say, that I have an 80 cf 3000 psi tank that started at 3000 psi and is currently at 1500 psi and my SAC (or RMV) is 0.5 cf/min and that I'm currently at 30 fsw, it's quick and easy to figure out when I'll run dry: at the surface, the tank would now have 40 cf of gas. Since I'm at 2 ATA it currently "contains" the equivalent of 20 cf. Since I breathe 0.5 cf/min (regardless of depth) I've got 40 minutes left. (Obviously I picked numbers that made the math easy, but you get the point).

The whole point of SAC, as I see it, is actually the REVERSE calculation. If I know my depths and times enough to have an accurate average depth and know the volume and working pressure of the tank as well as the pressure change over the dive, I can compute my RMV as if I'd been on the surface the whole time. Therefore, Surface Air Consumption *is* Respiratory Minute Volume, computed from data available in real-world diving conditions, including average depth, cylinder size and working pressure, and pressure drop over the course of the dive.
 
Atticus:
You can convert from RMV to SAC:
RMV = SAC / tank_service_pressure * tank_volume

Or you can convert from RMV to SAC:
SAC = tank_service_pressure * tank_volume / RMV.

No, I disagree. Let's take a real-world example. Joe's RMV (in Imperial units) is 0.67 cubic feet per minute measured in the physiology lab at the medical school (on land). They're physiologists or physicians there, so they really measure RMV in liters per minute, but Joe converted it with his calculator.

Sitting on a dock across the street from the physiology lab, Joe breathes from a variety of tanks using very high-quality regulators so effort of breathing is indistinguishable from what was measured in the lab.

1) 120 cubic foot high-pressure steel tank with 3442 psi working pressure. SAC by above formula would be 3442psi*120cf / 0.67 cf/min or 616,477.6 psi/min. (On the surface, pretty suspect.)

2) 30 cubic foot low pressure steel pony tank with 2400 psi working pressure. SAC by above formula would be 2400psi*30cf / 0.67 cf/min or 107,462.7 psi/min. (Also a pretty wierd result.)

This is why thinking of psi/minute is not useful. The results change (by a factor of 6!!) depending on the tank size and working pressure, even sitting on the dock. The whole point of SURFACE air consumption is to estimate "what would I be breathing if I were on the boat (assuming I'm burning the same number of calories and am huffing and puffing the same)?" Any formulas used should take depth, cylinder size, working pressure, and drop in cylinder pressure out of the final result and leave you with a volume of gas used over a unit of time.
 
Charlie99:
2.0 cubic feet per minute at 4 ata is a consumption rate of 0.5 cfm/ata. No mutually agreed upon definitions required.

Or going the other way, 0.5cfm/ata is also the consumption rate when using 1.5cfm at 3ata. (1.5cfm/3ata = 0.5cfm/ata)..

Not really. Your lung volumes don't change appreciably at depth. You're breathing 0.5 actual, real cubic feet of gas per minute irrespective of ambient pressure.

What IS different at different depths is the the density of that gas, and thus the rate at which the tank is being emptied. Your "80 cubic foot" cylinder would release gas AT THE SURFACE to fill 80 cubic feet assuming it had been filled to its working pressure. At 4 ATA it would fill only 20 cubic feet.

Consumption rate (what goes into your lungs) remains constant, while the "virtual" volume of gas in the cylinder (what it would fill at STP) does change.
 
Crazy Fingers:
You guys got me curious, and I wanted to see how low I could go while still breathing reasonably. (Not safe, but my location was :D ) My girlfriend thinks I'm really weird but....

Male
5'8"
140 lbs
92F in a Bathtub wearing "skinsuit"

0.27 scfm! I think I got a slight CO2 headache doing it though. :shakehead

I can understand your girlfriends point of view:confused:

How long did you run this test for?
 
Just to post 1 more ;)

Male 27 years old
240#'s
Mostly in a 3 mil shorty warm water..

I've never had problems with Suunto's Dive Manager (newest? version 2.3.0.136)

I've had a full range of .47 all the way up to 1.13 yea there was some stress involved on that dive!

After reading this thread I feel much better about my dives where I was getting .87 etc. I used to think I was doing something wrong, now I know that I just need to relax!

Here's a good example, my 1.13 dive...

This was my first dive ever in the ocean, I had just lugged both my wife's and my gear down the beach, and we were fighting a heavy surf. There was also some surge acording to the dm that day (as recorded in my logbook). I remember getting a leg cramp on that dive, worked it out using those cramp removal skills from OW class and continued on the dive. I'm sure this all contributed greatly!!

Now let's look at my .47 dive... Avg depth was 12 feet, and it was a digital photo class dive in a quarry.. Basically it was a float along, take pictures dive, no stress, no fuss, low SAC rate....

If I take the avg, I'm doing about .7 so there is some room for improvement, but as I scroll down in the program I notice that it's generally going down, starting off with about 1.0 during OW class dives, going down thru the .9's and .8's durring the OW cert dives, and then .8s and .7's durring my PPB dives.

I def. think it's worth the time to track, if nothing else it can show you how your diving is improving or not.
 
MStevens, thank you. I use the RMV=SAC/SP*VOL calculation frequently but almost never go the other direction and made an algebra error when I posted.

With my apologies for the previous inaccuracy, the correct formula is:

SAC=service_pressure * RMV / tank_volume

Now the results from your sample problem come out at:

RMV = 0.67
service_pressure=3442
tank_volume=120cf
SAC=19 psi/min (rounded)

RMV=0.67
service_pressure=2400
tank_volume=30cf
SAC=54 psi/min (rounded)

Much better!

I'm not a huge fan of thinking in psi/min either, but my point is that either way you have a representation of volume / time (with a calculator and assuming the tank characteristics are supplied).

mstevens:
No, I disagree. Let's take a real-world example. Joe's RMV (in Imperial units) is 0.67 cubic feet per minute measured in the physiology lab at the medical school (on land). They're physiologists or physicians there, so they really measure RMV in liters per minute, but Joe converted it with his calculator.

Sitting on a dock across the street from the physiology lab, Joe breathes from a variety of tanks using very high-quality regulators so effort of breathing is indistinguishable from what was measured in the lab.

1) 120 cubic foot high-pressure steel tank with 3442 psi working pressure. SAC by above formula would be 3442psi*120cf / 0.67 cf/min or 616,477.6 psi/min. (On the surface, pretty suspect.)

2) 30 cubic foot low pressure steel pony tank with 2400 psi working pressure. SAC by above formula would be 2400psi*30cf / 0.67 cf/min or 107,462.7 psi/min. (Also a pretty wierd result.)

This is why thinking of psi/minute is not useful. The results change (by a factor of 6!!) depending on the tank size and working pressure, even sitting on the dock. The whole point of SURFACE air consumption is to estimate "what would I be breathing if I were on the boat (assuming I'm burning the same number of calories and am huffing and puffing the same)?" Any formulas used should take depth, cylinder size, working pressure, and drop in cylinder pressure out of the final result and leave you with a volume of gas used over a unit of time.
 
Atticus:
I'm not a huge fan of thinking in psi/min either, but my point is that either way you have a representation of volume / time (with a calculator and assuming the tank characteristics are supplied).

I am a huge fan of thinking in terms of psi/min because that is what is on my pressure gauge. At depth I know that for my tanks (work this out ahead of time on land when you have calculators, etc) my SAC is 100 psi / 10 min / ata. That means that at 100 fsw I can plan on 400 psi / 10 min. And that corresponds to an RMV of 0.75 cu ft / min. For single Al80s that RMV works out to a SAC of 300 psi / 10 min / ata and single 120s/130s are around 200 psi / 10 min / ata. Way easier than trying to do conversions from cu ft to psi...
 
mstevens:
The number of gas molecules breathed per minute in each case, though, will be VERY different. I don't have good direct ways of measuring numbers of gas molecules in my cylinder, but I can easily know my depth (or ambient pressure) and the pressure in the cylinder and how it's dropping.

FYI, in a single 80 at 68 deg F, there are about 5.228*10^25 molecules of gas. I think that's a very usefull peice of information :)
 
Hi there...

Ok, complete newbie at this, I've just got Suunto's Dive Manager ( latest version ( 2.3.0.136 ).

According to it, my most recent dive ( in a new suit, first fairly deep dive in a year, and a slight current - AND I am a newbie! :) ), gave me the following...

My data :
Cylinder - 12 L 232 bar Steel ( Which I guess means Cylinder Size is 12Litres and working pressure is 232 bar? )
Starting Pressure : 190 bar
Ending Pressure : 40 bar
Ave. Depth : 14m
Dive Time : 26min 20sec

Its calculations :
SAC Rate : 26 SLM
Pressure Used : 150 bar
Rate used : 5.7 bar per minute
Total Gas in Cylinder : 2217.9 litres
Volume Gas Used : 1732.1 litres

Now, I know I'm new to diving, and I know I'm a hoover when it comes to air ( I'm working on it! ) but how come everyone's quoting figures of .5 or .4 or .7 for their SAC, and Suunto is telling me 26?

I reckon I'm missing some calculation here, but I've no idea what it is, and any sites I find online are in imperial, which just gets me more confused with the maths!

Any help much appreciated...

J.
 

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