What is Avanced Buoyancy Class?

[Walter]

Bob, you are 100% correct.

 

[H2Andy]

you would *think* that simple self-preservation would have you, when
facing the possibility of surviving on life-support underwater, opt for the
more comprehensive and longer instruction option, wouldn't you?

i mean, if someone said to you, here's this bomb in your back yard, no
one can dismantle it for you (some weird law) but i can teach you how to
dismantle it yourself one of two ways:

1. in a weekend for $99; or

2. during three weeks for $350

which one would you really chose?

 

[loosebits]

PFord, I agree wholeheatedly unfortunately not every future OW student has the benefit of knowing an experienced diver like you and I.

 

[Walter]

you would *think* that simple self-preservation would have you, when
facing the possibility of surviving on life-support underwater, opt for the
more comprehensive and longer instruction option, wouldn't you?

i mean, if someone said to you, here's this bomb in your back yard, no
one can dismantle it for you (some weird law) but i can teach you how to
dismantle it yourself one of two ways:

1. in a weekend for $99; or

2. during three weeks for $350

which one would you really chose?

That might depend on how much time was remaining on the timer. Hell, I'd just move.

 

[H2Andy]

lol

i'd raise the insure on my house and invite Stomp to perform in the back yard

 

[WaterDawg]

No ... people want to be certified in a weekend for $99.

I worked for a shop that offered 3-week classes for $350. They could not compete with the week-end wonder down the street who was offering the same certification in three days for $99. People would walk in, ask why our class was so much longer and more expensive ... and when we told them, about 90% of them would go down and sign up for the quickie class.

Blame the agencies all you want ... but ultimately it's up to the consumer. People will buy quick and cheap, because no matter how well you explain it to them that's what most of them want to buy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Now there is a man who has some experiance in this! Couldnt have said it better myself! People call the shop, they want to know about getting dive cert, they ask 2 questions: How much and how long? The want both to be the least possible if I told them 3hrs and $45 they would jump for joy! When I tell them its 4 day ( which I think is too short) and 305$ they sqirm. PF is right about people grilling a little league baseball coach more than a diving instructor, never mind that you can die u/w.

 

[CompuDude]

I don't think anyone objects to the class filling the need. I think the objection is to the OW class that doesn't teach the things it should in the first place. The "need" shouldn't exist. When an OW class is designed to have a flaw that will be fixed by another class later, that's a problem that should be addressed or is it merely a good marketing plan taking precedence over training?

I agree with the many points in the overall trend of this thread, but I do have some observations.

The entire concept of a Basic OW class is that you learn the basics of scuba diving. As another in thread pointed out, you learn by doing. Take this quote, from boulderjohn above:

"about 20 dives after you think you have mastered it, you realize you still suck."

I agree with this. But when you combine the two subjects being bantered about by the wizened diving experts in this thread... how long do you people expect a BASIC open water class to last?!? 5 dives? 20 dives? 40? 200? All in name of achieving perfect buoyancy control? It certainly makes you a better diver, but seriously, how many people are going to dive with the bar set THAT high? When are they to be allowed to learn on their own make their own mistakes? I agree some might get themselves into trouble, but my personal opinion is that anyone who wants to play Darwin's Little Helper and go for the advanced dives in poor conditions without being prepared deserves what they get. Even a crappy, read-from-a-card-and-never-deviate-the-script PADI B.O.W. course should give the new diver some clue that this ain't something to mess around with lightly.

Now, don't get me wrong. I agree that perhaps more time should be spent teaching (and being sure that the student learned well) good, basic buoyancy skills. But how much time is too much time? Where do you draw the line? I'm certainly not advocating the $99 one-day cert course. But I also can't advocate the 6 months of drilling it might take (or more!) to truly produce a DIR-F level diver who can pivot on a dime with his/her hands clasped in front.

So where should the bar be set? And further, what makes you think you have the right to determine that level? Opinions are like elbows, blah blah blah. If you're an instructor, perhaps you can set the level for YOUR students. Otherwise, there just ain't that much we can do about it. Further, I question just how much we SHOULD do about it.

The bar has been set. Is it too low? Arguably, yes. So you have four basic choices. 1) Write PADI, NAUI, SSA, SDI, etc. and give 'em an earful, and hope they act on it. 2) Become an instructor and train 'em yourself, to your standards. 3) Let it go. 4) Gripe about it here on SB.

It's generally clear which choices most have made...

 

[PerroneFord]

how long do you people expect a BASIC open water class to last?!? 5 dives? 20 dives? 40? 200?

Easy. Long enough for the student to demonstrate reasobnable proficiency.

All in name of achieving perfect buoyancy control? It certainly makes you a better diver, but seriously, how many people are going to dive with the bar set THAT high?

Since when did this become a question about numbers? I'd love to see a higher proficiency of diver graduating at the expense of losing another 20% not passing.

Now, don't get me wrong. I agree that perhaps more time should be spent teaching (and being sure that the student learned well) good, basic buoyancy skills. But how much time is too much time? Where do you draw the line? I'm certainly not advocating the $99 one-day cert course. But I also can't advocate the 6 months of drilling it might take (or more!) to truly produce a DIR-F level diver who can pivot on a dime with his/her hands clasped in front.

This is SUCH a misnomer. DIRF is 3-4 dives. For many students, another 10 dives beyond that begins to show marked improvement. I know that 3 dives after Fundies, I was FAR better in the water. What's wrong with having BOW be 8 dives? And for the record, pivoting on a dime with hands clasped in front is not NEARLY as hard as it looks. If your buoycancy is reasonable, it's child's play.

So where should the bar be set? And further, what makes you think you have the right to determine that level?

We don't. But it's clear that the people who DO aren't interested in helping out. I voted with my feet and sought agencies and instructors who set the bar higher. Lost money is something even the large agencies pay attention to.

Opinions are like elbows, blah blah blah. If you're an instructor, perhaps you can set the level for YOUR students. Otherwise, there just ain't that much we can do about it. Further, I question just how much we SHOULD do about it.

I disagree. Someone a while back suggested we set up a referral list in each state of top instructors. With the pull this place has, I am POSITIVE we could make some waves. If the largest SCUBA forum in the world, with the collective of the worlds largest database of knowledgeable recreational divers and instructors put their stamp on an instructor, I'd think Joe Blow might be inclined to listen. As it is, I recommend good instructors to friends all the time. And in that way, I hope we weed out the lazy or poor instructor by drying up their supply of new divers.

 

[scratchmyback]

I started my BOW course in Mexico earlier this year. I had no plans to dive before I got there, no plans to take a course, period. I felt pressured into doing it so I signed up for the resort course. Big mistake.

After the 2nd day I realized this way of learning was not for me. Too rushed, too scattered, in the pool for half an hour then back out for a couple hours, then in the pool again later, whenever, come back at 3, then it was come back at 3:30. Whatever. My instructor was also a DM on the dive boats and he was being pulled in several directions. He was very patient with me during the training but he had no control over the bouncing around that was happening with the schedule. So, I had the nagging feeling in the back of my head this just ain't right. I knew nothing about diving, or what was supposed to be covered other than what the book and the DVD's showed me. But my spidey sense was tingling. And I didn't want to waste my vacation this way.

So I stopped (no refund mind you) and spent the rest of my time snorkeling off the resort. I absolutely loved that. And it whetted my appetite. I had never snorkelled before.

Within a week of returning home I was referred to a local scuba club and I signed up for the BOW course. I just got certified this past weekend here in a quarry. I spoke to the instructor and told him how I felt about the previous course and he assured me their standards would be higher. The club is very focused on safety.

So what's my point? I knew nothing of what to expect when I originally signed up in Cozumel and forked over my money. But something did not feel right about it so I aborted. I know that was the right thing to do. Even though I ended up paying for the course twice, I got my money's worth. It's my life we're talking about.

Do my bouyancy skills suck? Pretty much. Practice time in the pool is limited, and I can only say I noticed improvement between OW dive # 1 and OW dive # 4. The main thing is I know that I suck at it and that I can only get better. My first post-OW dive is this Thursday. Can't wait.

Laura

 

[CompuDude]

Easy. Long enough for the student to demonstrate reasobnable proficiency.

This is SUCH a misnomer. DIRF is 3-4 dives. For many students, another 10 dives beyond that begins to show marked improvement. I know that 3 dives after Fundies, I was FAR better in the water. What's wrong with having BOW be 8 dives? And for the record, pivoting on a dime with hands clasped in front is not NEARLY as hard as it looks. If your buoycancy is reasonable, it's child's play.

I think you made my point. Another 10 dives makes a huge difference. But is how many prospective students are going to be willing to pony up for another 10 dives with an instructor, and at what cost and time commitment? I'd peg mainland certification costs around $350 as it is, sometimes including incidentals, sometimes not. How much would it cost with the time, gear rental, and instructor time involved in adding 10 more dives? Also perhaps I should have said Fundies vs. DIR-F? Not 100% certain of the terminology, as I have yet to make that leap. My point is those divers, as graduates from a far more exacting course, are going to have FAR better skills (and already have FAR more dives under their belt) than someone just getting their first B.O.W. course.

Since when did this become a question about numbers? I'd love to see a higher proficiency of diver graduating at the expense of losing another 20% not passing.

Now, I agree with your statement about 20% not passing. In fact, it's the "not passing" part of that that I like the most. Far too many courses I've seen will "pass" anyone who has sat through the classes and nodded their head in the right places. Including someone who says yes to "do you understand what you did wrong, and why, and how to not do that again?" without making them actually perform. I'd rather see certification courses be more like drivers ed, with written and performance tests that have to be PASSED before handing them a cert card. Too often, that is not the case.

BUT if you set the bar TOO high, and don't allow people to learn at different paces, realizing that not all divers are equal, I think the sport will suffer. The question is, how many more dives is reasonable to add onto a course without (a) putting LDS's out of business or (b) scaring off too many prospective students? That's a tricky call for us to make, safe in our own skillset and sitting behind a keyboard.

We don't. But it's clear that the people who DO aren't interested in helping out. I voted with my feet and sought agencies and instructors who set the bar higher. Lost money is something even the large agencies pay attention to.

I disagree. Someone a while back suggested we set up a referral list in each state of top instructors. With the pull this place has, I am POSITIVE we could make some waves. If the largest SCUBA forum in the world, with the collective of the worlds largest database of knowledgeable recreational divers and instructors put their stamp on an instructor, I'd think Joe Blow might be inclined to listen. As it is, I recommend good instructors to friends all the time. And in that way, I hope we weed out the lazy or poor instructor by drying up their supply of new divers.

While I agree 100% with you, when theory hits reality I don't think it will make as big of a difference as you seem to think. As large as SB is, it is dwarfed by the sheer numbers of divers who never touch a computer. And Joe Vacation is not looking to do heavy research while on vacation in Jamaica or Cozumel. He's looking at the little guy in front of him, offering to "certify" him as a gen-u-ine scuba diver and offering underwater thrills!

That said, it's worth a shot. Now if we can just get the SB crowd to agree on something...