What does Padi Deep water certification teach that AOW does not?

[tursiops]

Note that under the PADI system, no skills can be added as a requirement for certification

Correct. But they can be added, but they cannot be additional requirements for certification.

 

[MikeInDorset]

Here's my recent experience of completing my deep certification in the UK and why I found it useful. My diving doesn't take me to more than 30m but I wanted experience of diving at 40m.

I'm well known to my dive school. I've trained with them and dive with them regularly, so they know my diving capabilities and weaknesses well. I had two instructors, both are experienced tec divers.

The first two dives were to 30m and were nothing special in the sense that I've dived at that location (the deepest pit in a flooded quarry) before and was familiar with the conditions (cold, about 6oC, and murky).

The second two dives were to 40m in a different quarry. These 40m dives were down to a rock shelf on the quarry wall. Slightly warmer, at about 9oC. (I wear a drysuit.) The shelf is at about 43m and I was expected to hover accurately at 40m or just above, but NO lower, while completing the task on the first dive, and while enjoying the environment on the second dive. It was valuable to observe how quickly you approach the limit of your NDL at depth, and how quickly it recovers to a greater margin once you ascend, variance in SAC, and the difference in the amount of time your finger needs to press your inflate button to have the same effect as nearer the surface.

On the first dive we ascended slowly and moved to another point to hover for the simulated 8 minute emergency decompression. I repeated the task to compare time and handwriting. Apparently I can concentrate better at depth! The 8 minute stop was over a deeper part of the quarry, about 60m, and that was interesting in itself. On the second dive we ascended to a shelf at about 25m and I was taken on a long and enjoyable tour of almost all of the quarry's attractions to explore / penetrate, while we gently moved towards where we completed a safety stop in shallow water.

Value of doing it:

- experience of planning dives where the safety margins are much narrower
- experience of having to truly take care with NDLs
- general confidence boost - when diving to 30m now I'm not near the limits of my experience
- detailed feedback on the specifics of the dives
- useful feedback on how depth appears to affect me
- a *lot* of useful feedback on trim and finning after the first dive, which I could action in the second
- a thorough introduction to a new diving location I'll now visit as often as I can, though I'd only dive to 40m with a few people I trust or as part of my current DM internship / training.

That value came from the quality of my instructors who shared a strong sense of safety and purpose and who were highly focused on building my safety and competence as a diver, not just giving me 'an experience' at depth.

 

[Bob DBF]

So you wish to delete several thousand OW certifications from NC alone?

Now we all know that no cert can be deleted, even if the diver has been dead for years.

The real issue is having a diver being certified OW, AOW, and Deep in 65' of water. Not only does it shortchange the student, it may very well put other divers at risk should they dive looking only at a card. The reason for the class is to give the student knowledge and experience under instruction at the depths they are to be certified, without the depth there is no experience.


Bob

 

[Steve_C]

Now we all know that no cert can be deleted, even if the diver has been dead for years.

The real issue is having a diver being certified OW, AOW, and Deep in 65' of water.

I do not disagree with that at all. My instructor at that time did the AOW in 65 ft but told me it was senseless to do deep at 65. I did not have any dive buddies at the time and was doing as much quarry diving as possible before moving to the ocean. I was incremental with the ocean. Gradually doing more challenging dives, sometimes with private DMs if a new type dive for me sometimes not. A few years later with over 200 dives and a number of them in the 85-105 ft range I picked up deep in the ocean because I thought it good to have the card before doing DM. Not saying that was true or not. The ocean dives were fun and in the 85-90 ft range but at that point I did not learn anything new in them.

I know I always get a little narked at 100 (but very little at 85-90) and need to focus. I have had one dark nark at 105 and one dim nark at 100. So I feel no need to go to 130 to learn about myself. It is supposed to be fun.

 

[MichaelMc]

Here are the requirements for the 4 dives for the PADI deep diver course. You decide how much learning there is obtained through doing this with an instructor. Note that under the PADI system, no skills can be added as a requirement for certification (like shooting a bag).

Wow. 3 of 4 dives can use tactile reference for descent/ascent. I guess for high current, but that makes depth control in all environments much easier. No mention of gas planning.

No big discussion of narcosis just how long tasks take. I thought they removed the timed task because some get the reverse effect than the desired lesson.

Edit: I guess dives need to be greater than 60' from the discussion.

 

[tursiops]

Here are the requirements for the 4 dives for the PADI deep diver course. You decide how much learning there is obtained through doing this with an instructor. Note that under the PADI system, no skills can be added as a requirement for certification (like shooting a bag).

On a side note, the DSMB course is really remedial training. So is the PPB. They make up for poor open water courses where students are placed on the knees. Students should meet the performance requirements of the DSMB and PPB specialties in their open water courses (my opinion).


Dive One • Execute a descent using a reference as a tactile or visual
guide (line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Compare changes in color at the surface and at depth.
• Compare your own depth gauge to your instructor’s or
other student diver’s depth gauges.
• Use a depth gauge and timing device (or a dive computer
with an ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate
not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform a 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before
surfacing.
a. Brie!ng
1. Dive sequence – review Dive One tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive One Tasks
1. Student divers observe and record color changes of objects while
at depth. If possible, use underwater lights to view colors with
natural light and then with the arti!cial light comparison
2. Student divers compare depth gauge or dive computer readings
with buddy’s and instructor’s. Write down each reading on a slate.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debrie!ng
1. Student divers discuss the changes of color of objects at depth. In
addition, discuss the comparison of personal depth gauge or computer
readings with instructor’s and other student divers’. Guide
discussions to address what worked, what didn’t work, and how
things may be done di$erently the next time. Speci!cally focus
the discussion on descents using a reference, their observations
of color changes at depth, the comparison of depth gauge or dive
computer readings, their ascents using a reference, procedures for
monitoring their ascent rate, and the 3-minute safety stop at
5 metres/15 feet before surfacing.
f. Log dive (instructor signs log)


Dive Two
• Execute a “free” descent using a reference line, wall or
sloping bottom as a visual guide only.
• Describe and record the changes that occur to three
pressure-sensitive items while at depth.
• Perform a navigation swim with a compass away from,
and back to, the anchor of the reference line (one diver
navigates away from, the other navigates back to, the
reference line for a distance of between 10 and 20 kick
cycles, depending on visibility).
• Perform an ascent using a reference line, wall or sloping
bottom as a visual guide only.
• Use depth gauge and timing device (or a dive computer
with ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate not
to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform a 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before
surfacing without physically holding on to a reference line
for positioning.
a. Brie!ng
1. Dive sequence – review Dive Two tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive Two Tasks
1. Student divers handle and examine pressure-related objects while
at depth.
2. Student divers navigate away from and/or back to the reference
line for a distance of 10-20 kick cycles.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debrie!ng
1. Student divers discuss the appearance of the pressure-related
objects. In addition, discuss how student divers managed the
navigation exercise. Guide discussions to address what worked,
what didn’t work, and how things may be done di$erently the
next time. Speci!cally focus the discussion on descents using a
reference line, wall or sloping bottom as a visual guide, their navigation
exercise, their ascents using a reference line, wall or sloping
bottom as a visual guide, procedures for monitoring their ascent
rate, and the 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before
surfacing.
f. Log dive (instructor signs log)


Dive Three
• Execute a descent using a reference as a tactile or visual guide
(line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Compare the amount of time needed to complete a task on the
surface and at depth.
• Perform an ascent using a reference as a tactile or visual guide
(line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Use a depth gauge and timing device (or a dive computer with
ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate not to exceed
18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop
at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing, while breathing from an
emergency air source for at least one minute of the total time.
a. Brie!ng
1. Dive sequence – review Dive "ree tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive "ree Tasks
1. Student divers repeat timed task at depth for comparison with time
taken to complete the same task on the surface.
2. Student divers perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression
stop while breathing from an emergency air source for at least one
minute.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debrie!ng
1. Student divers discuss the timed task performed at the surface to that
performed at depth. Guide discussions to address what worked, what
didn’t work, and how things may be done differently the next time. Speci
fically focus the discussion on descents using a reference line, wall or
sloping bottom as a tactile or visual guide, their timed task, their ascents
using a reference line, wall or sloping bottom as a tactile or visual guide,
and procedures for monitoring their ascent rate. In addition, talk about
the 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop at 5 metres/15
feet before surfacing and how student divers handled breathing from an
emergency air source for at least one minute of total time. Ask student
divers to discuss what they used for an emergency air source (alternate
air source second stage, pony bottle, H- and Y-valves). Again, ask divers
to elaborate on what worked, what didn’t, and how things may be done
differently the next time.
f. Log dive (instructor signs log)

Dive Four
• Execute a descent using a reference as a tactile or visual
guide (line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Complete an underwater tour of the area.
• Perform an ascent using a reference as a tactile or visual
guide (line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Use your depth gauge and timing device (or a dive
computer with ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent
rate not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform a 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before
surfacing.
a. Briefng
1. Dive sequence – review Dive Four tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive Four Tasks
1. Student divers complete an underwater tour of the area at depth.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debrie!ng
1. Student divers discuss their underwater tour at depth. Guide
discussions to address what worked, what didn’t work, and how
things may be done differently the next time. Specifically focus
the discussion on descents using a reference as a tactile or visual
guide (line, wall or sloping bottom), their underwater tour, their
ascents using a reference as a tactile or visual guide (line, wall or
sloping bottom), procedures for monitoring their ascent rate, and
the 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing.
f. Log dive (instructor signs log)

By the way, these quoted performance requirements are not up-date; they have been superseded by additional requirements -- including gas planning -- in 2016.

 

[NAM001]

Yea the Narcosis part is unsettling. Ive heard of divers just going blank and sinking away unaware. and then there is the frightening deepwater blackout which is I guess too much CO2 from overexertion...yikes


edit just googled deepwater blackout which is for freediving. I guess im thinking of a different term where you can pass out at depth

It should surely let you exerience first hand the effects of deep diving and loss of short term memory because of being narced and not knowing it. Often i have known people showing me their pics after a dive to 100+ and they dont remember why they took the pic or even taking it.

 

[NAM001]

Which makes it pointless to take. If you cannot experience narcosis at 130 feet during the course, why be certified to dive to that depth?

I agree I dont know how you can learn the 130 environment at 80 ft. The big bene of a class is that you have an instructor that can recognize in this case that you may be getting narced. do your class to 80 give them a card tlet them find out about being narced on their own is not a good process.

 

[TMHeimer]

Well of course it makes little or no sense to take either AOW or Deep if the dives don't at least approach the 100' and 130' limits. Well, you'd take AOW anyway of course because of some charters requiring it for deeper dives.
I don't know about prohibiting the Deep course if there is no reasonably close place to dive to 130' or so.
I took my driver test in 1971 on city streets and was immediately certified to drive the Interstates with no practice on them.
You can argue this either way. As discussed on another recent thread, you can probably gradually go deeper--with or without an instructor/experienced deep diver--and become adept at 130' diving.
Then you can discuss with your fellow OW cert. buddy what the colours look like down there.
Not making light of the course--I was glad I did it with an instructor and glad to go to 130'. Fortunately, there is an ocean right here.

 

[Efka76]

Deep dive training should bring student to 40 m. depth in order student to experience that depth, see how she/he is affected by gas narcosis. If you do "deep dive training" in 30 m or less depth, it does not make any sense.