What does Padi Deep water certification teach that AOW does not?

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Ok. With all that has been said on here I have to ask.
Is there an organization that has better curriculum than the others? And if so which one?
For AOW, would it be better to go through SSI or NAUI, ect?
Same for Deep.
I guess what I'm asking is. Is there some way to compare the course content of each organization for equivalent level of certs and pick the most comprehensive course for each cert?
When you start getting into courses like the deep course, it really is more about the instructor than the agency. If you want to get a good deep class, choose a technical instructor. Or an instructor that is at least an experienced technical diver. Why? Because the chances are that you will then get an education in the realities of diving beyond 100 feet. Not an experience with a bit of extra info.
An instructor that is a tech diver or instructor is going to start the class discussing all the ways that deep diving can kill you. Then they are going to tell you what you will learn to REDUCE the risk of that happening. And like all diving, all you can do is reduce the risk. It cannot be eliminated.
Any instructor for any agency can create a great deep course if they choose to.
An instructor can also offer one, if taught to minimum standards, that barely qualifies a diver to survive a deep dive on their own with a similarly trained buddy.

When I teach a deep class this is what I do.
In addition to telling a student how many ways SCUBA can kill them, we spend at least one full classroom session (2 hours or so) on gas management and dive planning. Including emergency deco training.

Not so you can do decompression dives, but so that that you can see exactly why there's no such thing as accidental deco or a little deco. Either of those is a failure of the plan and the diver.

We cover SAC and RMV, all plans are square profiles cut on tables and the plan is created and followed like a tech dive. The computer is a back up to the plan.

Gas supplies are calculated and cylinder matching is done. Every diver is taught how to use a redundant air supply that they carry the entire dive.

A session is spent on equipment and emergency procedures. If the diver doesn't have a rescue cert and did not get rescue skills in their OW or AOW class a workshop is required to give them those skills.

If I don't know the diver a pool session of a couple of dives is required to assess their buoyancy control and trim.
If done locally, they should also have drysuit experience. Our deep dive spot is 38-42 degrees on the bottom. As a general rule, I won't take a diver not diving dry for a local course.

No more than 2 divers at a time and they need to demonstrate excellent buddy awareness and skills prior to the course.

In the water, we follow all the SDI requirements in addition to the ones I have and complete all the skills to my satisfaction. Any deviation from safety protocols, disregard for safety procedures, or intentional violation of the dive plan is a failure until those issues are corrected.

Divers must demonstrate excellent buoyancy and trim, do all basic skills neutral and horizontal, shoot a DSMB, demonstrate buddy skills and perform s drills on each dive.

Complete a checklist of equipment before each dive, do a bubble check at 15-20 ft, demo an air share on demand, and demonstrate hand, light, and written communication.

Narcosis is checked for on each dive using a dive related task. Running a reel, responding to an air share request, deploying the redundant air supply, etc.

They are also tasked with creating an emergency deco profile using the tables they have cut.

We use simulated stops at 50, 40, 30, 20, and 10 ft on at least two of the dives as a test of buoyancy control and following a schedule.

Safety stops are done at 20 ft if we are not doing the simulated stops.

During stops, they should not change depth by more than 2 feet. In my tech classes that drops to 1 ft.

On the last two dives, they ascend on a line created by shooting the DSMB at one of the simulated deco stops.

I may also change or add some skills based on the student and conditions. If the student is taking this a prep for a tech class, I'll add some classroom and skills to help with that.
 
When you start getting into courses like the deep course, it really is more about the instructor than the agency. If you want to get a good deep class, choose a technical instructor. Or an instructor that is at least an experienced technical diver. Why? Because the chances are that you will then get an education in the realities of diving beyond 100 feet. Not an experience with a bit of extra info.
An instructor that is a tech diver or instructor is going to start the class discussing all the ways that deep diving can kill you. Then they are going to tell you what you will learn to REDUCE the risk of that happening. And like all diving, all you can do is reduce the risk. It cannot be eliminated.
Any instructor for any agency can create a great deep course if they choose to.
An instructor can also offer one, if taught to minimum standards, that barely qualifies a diver to survive a deep dive on their own with a similarly trained buddy.

When I teach a deep class this is what I do.
In addition to telling a student how many ways SCUBA can kill them, we spend at least one full classroom session (2 hours or so) on gas management and dive planning. Including emergency deco training.

Not so you can do decompression dives, but so that that you can see exactly why there's no such thing as accidental deco or a little deco. Either of those is a failure of the plan and the diver.

We cover SAC and RMV, all plans are square profiles cut on tables and the plan is created and followed like a tech dive. The computer is a back up to the plan.

Gas supplies are calculated and cylinder matching is done. Every diver is taught how to use a redundant air supply that they carry the entire dive.

A session is spent on equipment and emergency procedures. If the diver doesn't have a rescue cert and did not get rescue skills in their OW or AOW class a workshop is required to give them those skills.

If I don't know the diver a pool session of a couple of dives is required to assess their buoyancy control and trim.
If done locally, they should also have drysuit experience. Our deep dive spot is 38-42 degrees on the bottom. As a general rule, I won't take a diver not diving dry for a local course.

No more than 2 divers at a time and they need to demonstrate excellent buddy awareness and skills prior to the course.

In the water, we follow all the SDI requirements in addition to the ones I have and complete all the skills to my satisfaction. Any deviation from safety protocols, disregard for safety procedures, or intentional violation of the dive plan is a failure until those issues are corrected.

Divers must demonstrate excellent buoyancy and trim, do all basic skills neutral and horizontal, shoot a DSMB, demonstrate buddy skills and perform s drills on each dive.

Complete a checklist of equipment before each dive, do a bubble check at 15-20 ft, demo an air share on demand, and demonstrate hand, light, and written communication.

Narcosis is checked for on each dive using a dive related task. Running a reel, responding to an air share request, deploying the redundant air supply, etc.

They are also tasked with creating an emergency deco profile using the tables they have cut.

We use simulated stops at 50, 40, 30, 20, and 10 ft on at least two of the dives as a test of buoyancy control and following a schedule.

Safety stops are done at 20 ft if we are not doing the simulated stops.

During stops, they should not change depth by more than 2 feet. In my tech classes that drops to 1 ft.

On the last two dives, they ascend on a line created by shooting the DSMB at one of the simulated deco stops.

I may also change or add some skills based on the student and conditions. If the student is taking this a prep for a tech class, I'll add some classroom and skills to help with that.

That sounds like a full tec class not a Padi specialty cert. Which is great but I would hazard a guess you are in the 1% of deep diver specialty instructors? Id love to have you train me but im not jumping in any 38 degree water. Ill stick to my balmy 52 degree Nothern Cali water with an 8 mil semi dry.

Id also have to take the rescue course and brush up with a peak performance boyancy cert first. Although I feel im great compared to most rec divers in my boyancy. Its the first thing I wanted to get good at.
 
That sounds like a full tec class not a Padi specialty cert. Which is great but I would hazard a guess you are in the 1% of deep diver specialty instructors? Id love to have you train me but im not jumping in any 38 degree water. Ill stick to my balmy 52 degree Nothern Cali water with an 8 mil semi dry.

Id also have to take the rescue course and brush up with a peak performance boyancy cert first. Although I feel im great compared to most rec divers in my boyancy. Its the first thing I wanted to get good at.

Hi ScubadriverDale,

Sorry about being somewhat off topic, but the thread seems to be going this way.

I had the same quandary several years back.

My instructor talked about the difference between PADI Deep and Tec 40. He did not make Deep a prerequisite for Tec 40. I wanted to have a cert card (cards) that covered all contingencies in the recreational range--0 fsw to 130 fsw. I am a travel/vacation diver mostly (I live in southern Ohio, the diving sucks around here). I was tired of having dive ops use the cert card excuse for not doing really cool dives.

We settled on PADI tec 40. It is a comprehensive course. The first comprehensive course I have taken while SCUBA diving.

Tec 40 is not a deep cert class, per se, as you won't focus on narcosis. However, you will learn more about narcosis as there is lots of book learning with Tec 40. The dives are filled with tasks and you must be an exemplary buddy to pass.

When a dive op questions certifications for a requested recreational dive, I flash the tec 40 while slinging my stage and then we splash.

Food for thought, and cheers,
markm
 
Here are the requirements for the 4 dives for the PADI deep diver course. You decide how much learning there is obtained through doing this with an instructor. Note that under the PADI system, no skills can be added as a requirement for certification (like shooting a bag).

On a side note, the DSMB course is really remedial training. So is the PPB. They make up for poor open water courses where students are placed on the knees. Students should meet the performance requirements of the DSMB and PPB specialties in their open water courses (my opinion).


Dive One • Execute a descent using a reference as a tactile or visual
guide (line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Compare changes in color at the surface and at depth.
• Compare your own depth gauge to your instructor’s or
other student diver’s depth gauges.
• Use a depth gauge and timing device (or a dive computer
with an ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate
not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform a 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before
surfacing.
a. Brie!ng
1. Dive sequence – review Dive One tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive One Tasks
1. Student divers observe and record color changes of objects while
at depth. If possible, use underwater lights to view colors with
natural light and then with the arti!cial light comparison
2. Student divers compare depth gauge or dive computer readings
with buddy’s and instructor’s. Write down each reading on a slate.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debrie!ng
1. Student divers discuss the changes of color of objects at depth. In
addition, discuss the comparison of personal depth gauge or computer
readings with instructor’s and other student divers’. Guide
discussions to address what worked, what didn’t work, and how
things may be done di$erently the next time. Speci!cally focus
the discussion on descents using a reference, their observations
of color changes at depth, the comparison of depth gauge or dive
computer readings, their ascents using a reference, procedures for
monitoring their ascent rate, and the 3-minute safety stop at
5 metres/15 feet before surfacing.
f. Log dive (instructor signs log)


Dive Two
• Execute a “free” descent using a reference line, wall or
sloping bottom as a visual guide only.
• Describe and record the changes that occur to three
pressure-sensitive items while at depth.
• Perform a navigation swim with a compass away from,
and back to, the anchor of the reference line (one diver
navigates away from, the other navigates back to, the
reference line for a distance of between 10 and 20 kick
cycles, depending on visibility).
• Perform an ascent using a reference line, wall or sloping
bottom as a visual guide only.
• Use depth gauge and timing device (or a dive computer
with ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate not
to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform a 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before
surfacing without physically holding on to a reference line
for positioning.
a. Brie!ng
1. Dive sequence – review Dive Two tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive Two Tasks
1. Student divers handle and examine pressure-related objects while
at depth.
2. Student divers navigate away from and/or back to the reference
line for a distance of 10-20 kick cycles.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debrie!ng
1. Student divers discuss the appearance of the pressure-related
objects. In addition, discuss how student divers managed the
navigation exercise. Guide discussions to address what worked,
what didn’t work, and how things may be done di$erently the
next time. Speci!cally focus the discussion on descents using a
reference line, wall or sloping bottom as a visual guide, their navigation
exercise, their ascents using a reference line, wall or sloping
bottom as a visual guide, procedures for monitoring their ascent
rate, and the 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before
surfacing.
f. Log dive (instructor signs log)


Dive Three
• Execute a descent using a reference as a tactile or visual guide
(line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Compare the amount of time needed to complete a task on the
surface and at depth.
• Perform an ascent using a reference as a tactile or visual guide
(line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Use a depth gauge and timing device (or a dive computer with
ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent rate not to exceed
18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop
at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing, while breathing from an
emergency air source for at least one minute of the total time.
a. Brie!ng
1. Dive sequence – review Dive "ree tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive "ree Tasks
1. Student divers repeat timed task at depth for comparison with time
taken to complete the same task on the surface.
2. Student divers perform an 8-minute simulated emergency decompression
stop while breathing from an emergency air source for at least one
minute.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debrie!ng
1. Student divers discuss the timed task performed at the surface to that
performed at depth. Guide discussions to address what worked, what
didn’t work, and how things may be done differently the next time. Speci
fically focus the discussion on descents using a reference line, wall or
sloping bottom as a tactile or visual guide, their timed task, their ascents
using a reference line, wall or sloping bottom as a tactile or visual guide,
and procedures for monitoring their ascent rate. In addition, talk about
the 8-minute simulated emergency decompression stop at 5 metres/15
feet before surfacing and how student divers handled breathing from an
emergency air source for at least one minute of total time. Ask student
divers to discuss what they used for an emergency air source (alternate
air source second stage, pony bottle, H- and Y-valves). Again, ask divers
to elaborate on what worked, what didn’t, and how things may be done
differently the next time.
f. Log dive (instructor signs log)

Dive Four
• Execute a descent using a reference as a tactile or visual
guide (line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Complete an underwater tour of the area.
• Perform an ascent using a reference as a tactile or visual
guide (line, wall or sloping bottom).
• Use your depth gauge and timing device (or a dive
computer with ascent-rate indicator) to measure an ascent
rate not to exceed 18 metres/60 feet per minute.
• Perform a 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before
surfacing.
a. Briefng
1. Dive sequence – review Dive Four tasks
b. Predive procedures
c. Dive Four Tasks
1. Student divers complete an underwater tour of the area at depth.
d. Post-dive procedures
e. Debrie!ng
1. Student divers discuss their underwater tour at depth. Guide
discussions to address what worked, what didn’t work, and how
things may be done differently the next time. Specifically focus
the discussion on descents using a reference as a tactile or visual
guide (line, wall or sloping bottom), their underwater tour, their
ascents using a reference as a tactile or visual guide (line, wall or
sloping bottom), procedures for monitoring their ascent rate, and
the 3-minute safety stop at 5 metres/15 feet before surfacing.
f. Log dive (instructor signs log)
 
I will just note that the Deep diver specialty may not involve dives to 130 ft. It may be 80ft or something else. Depends on what is locally available.
 
I will just note that the Deep diver specialty may not involve dives to 130 ft. It may be 80ft or something else. Depends on what is locally available.
Which makes it pointless to take. If you cannot experience narcosis at 130 feet during the course, why be certified to dive to that depth?
 
Which makes it pointless to take. If you cannot experience narcosis at 130 feet during the course, why be certified to dive to that depth?

OW certifies you to 60 ft and many OW divers never get below 30 ft during the OW course. Heck, they only have to see 20 ft for the dive to count in training.

Plus certification aside large numbers of OW only divers routinely dive to 80 ft. I see it all the time locally and sometimes run across them at 90 and 100.

Personally I can tell that I am often (sometimes noticably) a bit narced at 100ft. Often enough so that I set my own personal depth limit around 105. I still feel in control and I can see what I want to see.
 
OW certifies you to 60 ft and many OW divers never get below 30 ft during the OW course. Heck, they only have to see 20 ft for the dive to count in training.

Plus certification aside large numbers of OW only divers routinely dive to 80 ft. I see it all the time locally and sometimes run across them at 90 and 100.

Personally I can tell that I am often (sometimes noticably) a bit narced at 100ft. Often enough so that I set my own personal depth limit around 105. I still feel in control and I can see what I want to see.

And all of those students are getting short changed. Students absolutely should be going to 60 feet in open water. AOW, 100 feet. Deep, 130 feet.

We are getting into a discussion on how broken scuba diving training can be.
 
And all of those students are getting short changed. Students absolutely should be going to 60 feet in open water. AOW, 100 feet.
We are getting into a discussion on how broken scuba diving training can be.

So you wish to delete several thousand OW certifications from NC alone?

Our local quarry which serves a large area provides the site of hundreds of OW a year. During summer there is a strong thermocline at 35. There is a cold dark hole that hits 65. The hole is in the 50s. During summer upper layer is in the 80s and folks in 3 mm.

To hit 130 we have to go way off shore and that dive can involve currents and possibly bad weather.

We do not live on a coast which has a sloping shore line so you can pick your depth.
 
So you wish to delete several thousand OW certifications from NC alone?

Our local quarry which serves a large area provides the site of hundreds of OW a year. During summer there is a strong thermocline at 35. There is a cold dark hole that hits 65. The hole is in the 50s. During summer upper layer is in the 80s and folks in 3 mm.

To hit 130 we have to go way off shore and that dive can involve currents and possibly bad weather.

We do not live on a coast which has a sloping shore line so you can pick your depth.

So, it is possible to hit 60 feet at those locations.

If you don't want to hit 130, then I don't think deep should be taught.

This is just my opinion. I understand that you don't like it, but I am not the training director at any agencies ("Thank God!" several dozen people say reading this).
 
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