What does certification REALLY mean?

[divestoclimb]

My point it, if you do not certify people to go to 130' which is essentially what AOW does, the maybe, just maybe, fewer charters around the globe will take them.

More likely what will change the situation is the charters' insurance companies.

There's a quarry in PA that has some much stricter depth rules: OW divers 30', AOW 50', deep specialty required for any deeper. They also have lots of rules about environmentally sealed regs, pony bottles, etc. that I've never seen enforced, but the rules are there...

 

[Thalassamania]

I think that we need to get away from such linear, rule based thinking. If you look at the definitions I put up, you'll see that such thinking, with good reason, confines you to novice, or at best beginner, status. Let's look toward building thinking, intuiting divers rather than rule robots.

 

[NudeDiver]

I think that we need to get away from such linear, rule based thinking. If you look at the definitions I put up, you'll see that such thinking, with good reason, confines you to novice, or at best beginner, status. Let's look toward building thinking, intuiting divers rather than rule robots.

Good definitions, but there are (at least) two things lacking.

a). How do you objectively measure and determine where a diver falls? If you cannot measure, you cannot really manage.

b). How do you APPLY these definitions and any measurements you can take, to the real world?

c). Even if you don't propose making "rules" based on these measurements, how does a diver get an objective determination of where he/she stands?

One solution - not that I recommend it - but someone starts a, for lack of a better term, "Diver Metrics" agency. They do not provide training or certifications like dive agencies do - they provide measurements of diver's actual abilities. They issue an "m-card" (metrics) card that indicates demonstrated ability (as opposed to training). Dive operators can then assign m-card requirements to particular dives.

That's more of a complete solution. It is, of course, fraught with all sorts of practical problems. It's just an example.

So what do you propose to DO with your definitions?

 

[divestoclimb]

I think that we need to get away from such linear, rule based thinking. If you look at the definitions I put up, you'll see that such thinking, with good reason, confines you to novice, or at best beginner, status. Let's look toward building thinking, intuiting divers rather than rule robots.

I agree completely, but I don't think you can do that in the open water course (at least not outside the environment where the diver is trained). I think the only way a diver can learn to make those kinds of decisions on their own is with experience, otherwise they have to be given a basic ruleset to follow, and those rules can be for situations the diver has never even encountered.

I think the best you can do is extend the time spent in the pool and open water, but I'm sure that subject has been beaten to death... In a new environment you have to start with knowing what the rules are, then developing an understanding over time of why those rules are there.

 

[Thalassamania]

Good definitions, but there are (at least) two things lacking.

a). How do you objectively measure and determine where a diver falls? If you cannot measure, you cannot really manage.

There's that linear thinking again.

b). How do you APPLY these definitions and any measurements you can take, to the real world

As a framework for discussion and a step toward true enlightenment, sorry ... that's not "real world," is it? It does not harmonize with the Frengie Rules of Acquisition.

c). Even if you don't propose making "rules" based on these measurements, how does a diver get an objective determination of where he/she stands?

That's three things ... what's wrong with self determination as a goal?

One solution - not that I recommend it, but someone starts a, for lack of a better term, "Diver Metrics" agency. They do not provide training or certifications like dive agencies do - they provide measurements of diver's actual abilities. They issue an "m-card" (metrics) card that indicates demonstrated ability (as opposed to training). Dive operators can then assign m-card requirements to particular dives.

You can take your tongue out of your cheek, you look funny that way.

So what do you propose to DO with your definitions?

Absolutely nothing, just a way to clarify my own thinking, mores-the-question: what will you do with it? As they used to say: "How're you going to keep them down on the farm once they've seen Gay Paree?"

 

[NudeDiver]

Uh...OK....so, just talk, talk, talk. I get it now. Thanks.

 

[Thalassamania]

Really, it's okay.

I'm at that point in my life were, having done most everything that there is to do it becomes interesting (at least to me) to explore a the whys and hows, rather than just the whats. If, in your youthful enthusiasm, you see that as naught but talk, well I likely had much greater misunderstanding and did much dumber things, when I was at your stage of development ... though I have to admit that at that time I was about ten.

 

[rstofer]

NAUI Advanced Scuba no longer exists?

The old sequence of OW I, OW II, Advanced Scuba Diver has been compressed into Scuba Diver, Advanced Scuba Diver to align with PADI. The next step is Master Scuba Diver. It's not clear from the web page (to me, anyway) whether Rescue is required or whether any specialties are required before moving to MSD.

Unfortunately, the NAUI program looks a lot like PADI in terms of specialties. It also looks like a NAUI diver can take Rescue without taking Advanced Scuba Diver.

Things change... They don't necessarily improve.

Richard

 

[Thalassamania]

When you ape a corrupt system you're twice as corrupt at the one you copy.

 

[NudeDiver]

I'm at that point in my life were, having done most everything that there is to do it becomes interesting (at least to me) to explore a the whys and hows, rather than just the whats. If, in your youthful enthusiasm, you see that as naught but talk, well I likely had much greater misunderstanding and did much dumber things, when I was at your stage of development ... though I have to admit that at that time I was about ten.

Ta da!! And there it is. What a surprise.