What does certification REALLY mean?

[rstofer]

While I am not a fan of ANY student taking AOW in quick succession after OW (and always say develop your skills as an OW prior to moving on, your argument above is absolutely unfounded. I did my first night dive with my AOW. There was no herding because the ratio was 1 to 1 for staff divers to students. This is not always the case, but the blanket statement that you made is therefore false.

You are correct, there are exceptional courses. Mine was more like 6 to 1. It worked out fine because the instructor was able to keep track of everyone. Viz was good, the chem lights worked well and mine was the only flashlight to fail. But it felt like herding to me! We certainly weren't encouraged to go our own way and meet back at the beach.

I like the idea of 1 to 1. I don't know how often that happens but it would certainly be a better way to go.

The reason I suggested taking the classes as quickly as possible was to get as many supervised dives early in the hobby as possible. The alternative of doing some dives between OW and AOW makes me question who the new OW diver is diving with. Another new OW? Maybe that isn't the best thing to do. Go on a charter boat and get whatever insta-buddy nobody else will dive with? Hm... That doesn't sound good either.

Now, if a well qualified mentor is available then that can work out pretty well. There are a number of people here that have suggested that they are more than willing to help a new OW diver get started.

Richard

 

[ScubaSteve]

I just disagree with that..........

Yes I know. We have had this discussion before

.........I think people are just too hung up on the word "advanced" - which is really unfortunate.........

While I do agree with this in theory, I am not so much hung up on that word. I am hung up on the Maverick divers out there and the fact that the AOW certification allows them to immediately dive dives which exceed the training of many new divers. These divers are out there and not having the certification will at least prevent them from doing some of those dives. Nothing will stop everything a Maverick diver will do so we take the victories that we can. So we kind of agree, but not really.

.....................Oddly - so many people think that divers should take rescue diver at the first opportunity. I don't really get it. It's hard to be an effective rescue diver when you are still trying to get "above average" with your basic skills. I'd like to see a required 50 dive minimum before taking RD myself.

I have said that this was pretty much a ridiculous thing to allow to happen IMHO in many threads. SO, this one we definitely agree with each other.

 

[NudeDiver]

Yes I know. We have had this discussion before

Oh..well, I don't keep track

I am hung up on the Maverick divers out there and the fact that the AOW certification allows them to immediately dive dives which exceed the training of many new divers

Do you have any accident statistics or other solid evidence that divers with AOW certs are doing dives that require AOW certs, and are becoming injured or injuring others while on those dives, and the percentage of such accidents in any way represents a "spike" in the overall suite of diving-related incidents every year?

Nothing will stop everything a Maverick diver will do so we take the victories that we can.

Maybe we should work to pass legislation that requires divers to dive with a DM or above until they have completed X number of dives? How many do you think is enough? 10? 20? 50? 100?? What's the magic number?

 

[captain]

Maybe we should work to pass legislation that requires divers to dive with a DM or above until they have completed X number of dives? How many do you think is enough? 10? 20? 50? 100?? What's the magic number?

Maybe we should just work to train better divers, legislation doesn't seem to make better drivers or much of anything better.

 

[Walter]

Maybe we should just work to train better divers, legislation doesn't seem to make better drivers or much of anything better.

Unless they are dropping dead left and right, they must be good enough.

 

[NudeDiver]

Maybe we should just work to train better divers, legislation doesn't seem to make better drivers or much of anything better.

I think maybe your sarcasm detector may be malfunctioning

Unless they are dropping dead left and right, they must be good enough.

I agree.

 

[wreckchick]

I agree that buoyancy is critical to diving. I also agree it is the very essence of diving. But it is taught as an exercise. Get neutral, hover in position, change depths, that kind of thing. An exercise. There may, or may not, be any swimming (sightseeing, diving) involved. In a perfect world, the instructors would work throughout a dive (swimming) to help improve a student's buoyancy. I don't see it done that way. But, again, there are exceptional instructors that may do just that.

How many open water classes have you participated in again?

As an AOW diver doing their 7th dive and 1st night dive, I would suspect they are being herded. They certainly aren't leading the dive.

Actually, according to PADI standards, part of the night diving adventure dive does require the student to navigate at night, so they should be leading at least some portion of the dive.

Why is that? Are you saying a physically fit, former poster child for the Marine Corp with more than adequate diving skills is incapable of passing your class? I know that diver (it's not me) and I would expect him to be more than capable after as few as 9 dives. But, it's your class, whatever you say...

In the same way we are expected to accept the existence of exceptional instructors, we should also be willing to accept the existence of exceptional students.

But, whatever... It's your class.

Richard

Physically fitness is only marginally important when it comes to rescue. It's certainly an asset but someone that is not a Navy Seal can pass the class but someone that doesn't know how to dive can't. I've yet to meet someone with nine certified dives who knows enough to be able to control two divers to the surface with one of them unresponsive, or be able to quickly degear someone because they understand an array of dive gear and know where to look for releases, or can quickly gear up and respond to a missing diver call, has a good idea about how long they have to find someone who's been underwater for 45 minutes at 60' and had a last known air supply of 900psi in an AL80 before the rescue turns into a recovery, etc.

Of course there are exceptional students and some people really are naturals in the water, but rescue is a lot more than fitness, or natural diving ability, or superior math skills, or cool-headedness, it's putting all those components and more into the water where without at the least a solid foundation about a lot of aspects of diving the rescuer is ineffective at best and dangerous at worst.

No, that guy still wouldn't pass my class.

Rachel

 

[ScubaSteve]

......Maybe we should work to pass legislation that requires divers to dive with a DM or above until they have completed X number of dives? How many do you think is enough? 10? 20? 50? 100?? What's the magic number?

Or, perhaps one could take a smarter approach and simply train better divers. No I do not have statistics however anybody with eyes and the ability to interperet the funny little characters on ScubaBoard called text has the ability to read the many stories of people diving to great depths with 8 or 10 (just randomn numbers so don't you go getting caught up on the specific numbers) or penetrating wrecks with 10 or 15 dives (again just numbers). These things happen all the time....and often they are "trust me" dives.

My point it, if you do not certify people to go to 130' which is essentially what AOW does, the maybe, just maybe, fewer charters around the globe will take them. Will it save a life? Who knows. I do not see the problem with having an OW diver with 25, 50, 200 or 1000 dives logged. If somebody waits until dive #51 to take their AOW, then it just means that in most cases their skills will have been honedd or improved on, making them a slightly better diver than immediately after OW certification. This perhaps means they will get FAR more out of PBB because they will actually be able to use finesse to improve their buoyancy. A diver that goes into AOW immediately is not much better in practice than they were 5 dives earlier. How is that the better option? It just means that they can then sink like a rock and silt up the water (not every diver does this I know) at 130' if they want rather than forcing the charter to hold them to 60' (if they are maintaining proper limits that is). As far as I am concerned, the same new diver is going to learn a boatload immediately following certification by buddying up with an experienced diver (or DM or Instructor or...or..), stating honestly their inexperience and need to work on skills and then diving under their watchful eye and asking lots of questions afterwards about how they did and what they can do to improve. You do not need your AOW class dives to do that. Doing that in your AOW just means you do not take as much away from the AOW.

 

[jviehe]

Or, perhaps one could take a smarter approach and simply train better divers. No I do not have statistics however anybody with eyes and the ability to interperet the funny little characters on ScubaBoard called text has the ability to read the many stories of people diving to great depths with 8 or 10 (just randomn numbers so don't you go getting caught up on the specific numbers) or penetrating wrecks with 10 or 15 dives (again just numbers). These things happen all the time....and often they are "trust me" dives.

My point it, if you do not certify people to go to 130' which is essentially what AOW does, the maybe, just maybe, fewer charters around the globe will take them. Will it save a life? Who knows. I do not see the problem with having an OW diver with 25, 50, 200 or 1000 dives logged. If somebody waits until dive #51 to take their AOW, then it just means that in most cases their skills will have been honedd or improved on, making them a slightly better diver than immediately after OW certification. This perhaps means they will get FAR more out of PBB because they will actually be able to use finesse to improve their buoyancy. A diver that goes into AOW immediately is not much better in practice than they were 5 dives earlier. How is that the better option? It just means that they can then sink like a rock and silt up the water (not every diver does this I know) at 130' if they want rather than forcing the charter to hold them to 60' (if they are maintaining proper limits that is). As far as I am concerned, the same new diver is going to learn a boatload immediately following certification by buddying up with an experienced diver (or DM or Instructor or...or..), stating honestly their inexperience and need to work on skills and then diving under their watchful eye and asking lots of questions afterwards about how they did and what they can do to improve. You do not need your AOW class dives to do that. Doing that in your AOW just means you do not take as much away from the AOW.

AOW only takes you to 100ft. And it does not prohibit you from going to 130ft or 530ft. Certification is not a license, it is evidence of training. It is the industry that has standardized, right or wrong, on AOW being required to do a deep dive. In OW they advise you that you are trained to dive no deeper than 130ft, and reccomend you dive no deeper than 60ft as a new diver, 100ft after some training and/or experience, and 130 after more training and/or experience. This is advice, not a required limitation. There is absolutetly no laws or enforcement on diving depths.

 

[Walter]

I agree.

Then you either have given the concept very little thought or you have no concept of quality beyond survival.

AOW only takes you to 100ft.

It can take you to 100 ft. It's also quite possible it only took you to 60 ft.