What does certification REALLY mean?

[ScubaSteve]

NAUI Advanced Scuba no longer exists?

What I pasted is Advanced Scuba Diver.

 

[Thalassamania]

Ta da!! And there it is. What a surprise.

Good, you're capable of at least feigning suprise, that transcends the slavish robotic approach that you've been advocating ... there's still hope, if only there's enough time.

 

[Walter]

Based on these types of threads, those are precisely the ones you guys are trying to "save" from themselves.

I can't speak for others, but you misunderstand my intentions. I merely put the information out there so folks can make informed decisions. I expect most will still eat at McDonalds because it's fast and cheap. That's OK, I fully support their right to do so. I just want folks to know there are more nutritional choices available. "It's the chef, not the restaurant," is misleading when McDonalds is in the mix.

 

[Thalassamania]

I can't speak for others, but you misunderstand my intentions. I merely put the information out there so folks can make informed decisions. I expect most will still eat at McDonalds because it's fast and cheap. That's OK, I fully support their right to do so. I just want folks to know there are more nutritional choices available. "It's the chef, not the restaurant," is misleading when McDonalds is in the mix.

I feel exactly the same way. My objection is to the lies that are told to the public, both overt and covert, to assure that they chose the currently dominant system. Give the public the facts, give them the data to make real comparisions, then they can, as far as I'm concerned, go to hell in the handbasket of their choice. But all this BS about "mastery" of knowledge and skills and that diving is "safe" does not sit well with me.

 

[Atom]

It's already happening in Quebec (Canada), at least in theory anyway. You are supposed be be certified by FQAS (or have a tourist exemption) but I don't think there's any active enforcement (yet).

They started enforcing it... gently... inspectors are visiting popular sites and giving warnings to people (no fines yet as far as I know, but I could be wrong). From what I've seen dive shops don't enforce it, they want to see your PADI/SSI/etc cert not the FQAS permit which only applies to diving, not renting equipment, and they're allowed to teach you even if you don't have it (it's not like they won't tell you about it though). Although if they're organizing the whole thing (charter in Quebec, etc...) some of them will ask to see your card when you sign up.

The whole process is bit weird, and it took me a while to sort out what needed to be done to get this card (I got my cert outside of Quebec), their website is not very helpful. This isn't really good for dive tourism, but it's not like we get that much of it I guess. The only sensible argument for it that I heard was that a lot of people from Quebec get "certified" in Mexico/Cuba/Dominican Republic/... in warm/clear water with instructors of dubious quality and get into accidents when they try to dive for the first time in Quebec/Ontario, since it's much colder and the visibility isn't as good.

I personally did AOW just after OW, mostly because I thought the dives seemed like real fun (Night Dive!, PPB, Deep, Multi-Level) and useful as a first step to learn new skills and keep practicing what I learned during my OW. I believe it helped to strengthen what I learned during OW because it kept me diving just after doing it. Doesn't make me an advanced diver, or an experienced one, just a diver who learned a few more things through a course.

 

[DRomano]

I have meet dive instructors that have gone from their initial certification to instructor level within a year and have completed all their certifications diving in fresh water lakes. Talking about experience?

 

[Rhenry]

I may be a bit new, with fewer than 100 dives, but it seems to me the term ÅÄertification is just about meaningless. The real reason we have certification is to keep the lawyers out of our enjoyment. Having said that, the term we use OW, AOW etc are really just smoke, because the actual level of knowledge and experience is up to whom ever signs off the card. Each agency attempts to monitor and control the process, but in the end they canÃÕ do a whole lot about it. If we had a single qualification standard, and a universally accepted policy we would all be better off. Now we will all agree we need a standard, but what that standard would be is up for debate. The way the system works now itÃÔ anyoneÃÔ guess as to what the real qualification is of the ÅÕrained diver in question. I equate this to a cop, all cops have to meet certain minimum qualifications and have as a bear minimum 30 hours with a field training officer (FTO) before they go out on alone. We should adopt that same standard, minimums with the appropriate term. We would not be having this discussion, as it would be a simple AB issue. Either they passed the standard or they did not. All agencies would have to follow the same standards, some would add more, but non less. Yes we would still have multiple agencies with the different ÅÇlavors but the standard would be imposed at the office level as well as the dive level. The standard would be strictly enforced and we would have a much better community. Gee would'd that be nice!!

 

[Thalassamania]

Nice thought but you miss the point: money. You say that, "The real reason we have certification is to keep the lawyersey out of our enjoyment," actually the real reason that we have certification is to make money for a small group of people who's real concern is profit, not diver quality or training.

 

[bigtim6656]

i agree things have changed in every walk of life. I will be getting my ow in march. I remeber a few years ago i was in florida same shop wanted have what they want now. proplem i see without getting that cert card yoru going to have proplems getting tanks filled

This really is beating a dead horse... but...

There is no certification that amounts to a hill of beans.

There are people out there diving who have been diving for 30+ years and are superior divers (skill and experience wise) to virtually every Instructor, Instructor Trainer and Instructor Certifier on the planet.

I can't speak for every country in the world - but here in the USA, there is no legal requirement which has to be met to go diving. Certifications sprang up for 2 reasons.

1. Profit. All agencies were started by someone out to make a profit. They have no more basis for existence than that
2. Lawyers and Insurance Companies got involved with the agencies (again for profit) and made it sound like anyone who helped someone go diving would lose everything if they didn't hide behind certifications and cover themselves by insurance.

So unlike the old days when Earl learned how to dive from Jesse and they went out for an enjoyable afternoon on Billy Bob's boat... now people spend enormous amounts of money due to businessmen, lawyers and Insurance agents that they might otherwise put toward diving.

The fear was that unless the industry regulated itself, government might step in and none of the early entrepreneurs wanted that... so they joined with the lawyers and insurers and today - this is what you're stuck with.

You don't need a cert to go diving - unless you want to dive with someone else who's lawyer told them you need to show them one.

This has a lot to do with why so many advanced divers can't dive worth a poo and is what led you to ask this question... Hurry up, give them a c-card... take some more money give them an advanced card... nevermind they only have 10 dives. They need it to go on that dive trip - advanced cert is required.

God help us all... I'd dive with 10 divers who learned in the 70's with no certs before I'd dive with 10 PADI Instructors from the past decade... I'd feel a lot better about the chance of being rescued if god forbid I needed help.

 

[rstofer]

It isn't a matter of getting tanks filled. That's easy! Just have your certified buddy do it for you. Or buy your own compressor.

Many of the long time divers realize, by their own experiences and interactions with new divers, that modern SCUBA training is inadequate. There already exists some form of industry association that may, or may not, play a part in establishing some type of standard. But that only provides legal cover for the members. It doesn't raise standards and it doesn't lengthen the programs.

The problem is that the 'market' for diver training demands a shorter format so new divers can head to the resort for their first open water dive scheduled for 'next week'. In the very old days, there were no resorts so divers had no time pressure to get certified. It happened when it did, it was taught by a small cadre of highly experienced divers and the training was rigorous and substantial. That is no longer the case and it never will be again. Hopefully...

Why hopefully? Well, the only way we will ever get back to a minimum 100 hour program is through governmental interference. And that is only going to happen if the number of fatalities increases or somebody really famous dies. Something that shocks the conscience of some governmental agency. If they have one. But nobody wants governmental interference.

So, PADI sets the benchmark and the other agencies follow along or lose market share which they already don't have. It's the divers themselves that are to blame. They don't want to learn diving at a 100 hour level, they want 20 hours. The agencies just provide the program the customers demand.

I contend the training is 'good enough' not because I don't prefer the older programs but because you can't prove from the accident statistics that new divers are dying at an unreasonable rate. In fact, one could argue, as was done way back in this thread, that it is the experienced divers that have the unreasonable accident rate. That makes sense! They're the ones doing the risky dives. Most newcomers, if they have a brain in their head, are scared out of their minds. Deep down, they know that they don't have a clue and, for some period of time, they will tend to be quite cautious.

I wish the training were better, I know it will never be what it was and I know there isn't anything I can do about it. It's all very personal, you see, because my grandson was certified by PADI a month ago. I know that he can do the skills, I know that he can swim, I know he has prepared for this for years and years but I also know that he doesn't know anything about diving. Sure, he passed the tests. He can regurgitate the text material but he won't know anything until he has done a lot of dives. Hopefully without scaring himself right out of diving.

Richard