What does certification REALLY mean?

[sweatfrog]

No, I was working rather hard on the science exemption, the agencies, in their infinite wisdom, did not take our advice and follow our model.

Come on, I've seen you work two or three different threads at the same time on this forum. You are very articulate and prolific, also very hard headed and frustrating. But you've got the intelligence and experience that most people lack in this industry. My point is that you could have presented the scientific and recreational viewpoints as being parallel and avoided the controversy down the road. In your infinite wisdom, you chose not to do that.

Anyone with an interest in this topic should read these posts: 1, 2.

There was a PADI Instructor that was headed out the door, because he continually broke standards. He saw the writing on the wall and switched over to NAUI before that happened. When NAUI figured out what he was doing and initiated procedures to oust him, he started his own agency. He set it all up and then got someone from Florida, who was experienced in teaching Instructors to run the agency. When that individual found out what the founder of the agency was doing, he kicked him out.

Greed is a big driving factor and some people have no integrity. If the two people whose stories you just attached didn't turn those Instructors in for violating standards, then it's their own fault.

 

[Thalassamania]

Come on, I've seen you work two or three different threads at the same time on this forum. You are very articulate and prolific, also very hard headed and frustrating. But you've got the intelligence and experience that most people lack in this industry. My point is that you could have presented the scientific and recreational viewpoints as being parallel and avoided the controversy down the road. In your infinite wisdom, you chose not to do that.

You are forgetting some things, that was thirty years ago and I was much younger and less capable, also I was the most junior in a group of university Diving Safety Officers who were far more experienced, far more articulate, and far more prolific than I. We (and when I say we, I'm not using some kind of royal we, I'm not being falsely self-deprecating, I mean WE) kept the recreational agencies well appraised of what we were doing. They chose their own route and their own approach. They thought that they knew better (as you can guess there are some longstanding interpersonal issues between some of the senior DSOs and the some of the agency decision makers) and they thought they knew what their rice bowl looked like ... they were wrong, but all it cost them was a second round with OSHA, at a time when OSHA was much less demanding. The old saying, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink," applies.

There was a PADI Instructor that was headed out the door, because he continually broke standards. He saw the writing on the wall and switched over to NAUI before that happened. When NAUI figured out what he was doing and initiated procedures to oust him, he started his own agency. He set it all up and then got someone from Florida, who was experienced in teaching Instructors to run the agency. When that individual found out what the founder of the agency was doing, he kicked him out.

That sort of stuff happens. I guess I'm missing the moral of the tale.

Greed is a big driving factor and some people have no integrity. If the two people whose stories you just attached didn't turn those Instructors in for violating standards, then it's their own fault.

I think that if you really looked around you'd find that the sorts of tales those two tell are fairly common. You suffer from wearing the blinders of an expert, you have an expectation that most others are as competent as you are simply because most of the time they do things that are similar to what you do and they belong to the same club that you do. From what I've read I suspect that you and I actually have far more in common than you do with the vast majority of agency-whipped Instructors. Sure ... greed is at the bottom sometimes, laziness at other times but an inability to reach a level instructional proficiency in a system that provides so many props rounds out the unholy trinity.

I agree that the students should complain, but, in my experience that rarely does any good.

 

[leapfrog]

Best thread I ever read.

 

[RandyKowalski]

Thalassamania
I find your post interesting but inaccurate. It reflects your biased view of the SCUBA industry, past and present. SCUBA Diving is a recreational sport to be safely enjoyed by as many people as possible. Economics dictates that to keep the sport viable and affordable, volume is key. The LDS, manufactures and the resorts are the tip of the spear in achieving the necessary volume. With out them there is no INDUSTRY and we would be left with our sport available only to a select few (as it was in the early 60's). Academic elitism stifles capitalism. Let the market forces freely grow the industry (as it did in the 70s thru today) and we will continue to AFFORDABLY enjoy the sport we all love. Governmental Intrusion is never a good thing!!!!!
Randy
“We are limited only by our imagination and our willingness to make it a reality”

 

[Thalassamania]

An industry that rests on a lie will not long endure, and I fear that is the basic situation of the recreational diving industry today. It would not take much for it to tell the truth. It would not much change their situation. But the change is coming, driven both by internet sales and the current economic crisis. Only the smart will survive and with a little luck it will be the smart and the honest.

 

[RandyKowalski]

QUOTE=Thalassamania;4960021]An industry that rests on a lie will not long endure, and I fear that is the basic situation of the recreational diving industry today.

Spoken like a true Academic Elitist. The industry has been growing since the 60's BECAUSE of entrepreneurs taking risks and busting their butts to find a better way.... NOT Academic Elitist sitting in their cushy, tenured teaching jobs. Professor, before you belittle these early entrepreneurs of the diving industry, get your facts straight. As a teacher (I read your profile) with any integrity, you should know this. Secondly, an opinion based on ignorance is an ignorant opinion. Try standing in there shoes (business owners) and take a risk.... Make a payroll.....finding a real, Better Way. I personally knew a few of these fine men and they are NOT the con-men or crooks you make them out to be. They were men of vision and tenacity.
They had their short comings but ignorance or stupidity was not one of them. Professor, get off your high horse.

Randy
“We are limited only by our imagination and our willingness to make it a reality”

 

[Papa_Bear]

Hi! I'm rather new to the board (registered ages ago, but just really started participating regularly), so please excuse me if this topic has already been dealt with ad nauseum. That said....
What I simply dont understand about the various organizations is this: as I travel around diving (or also here in the Forum) I meet many, many divers who are, on paper, much more qualified than I. Master Divers/Dive Masters and even instructors, yet many have with well under 100 dives.
Last year as OW I was paired with a guy who had his AOW... I had at the time 83 logged dives, he had 14. He led the dive, as the "more advanced" diver. This really made me start to think about this, especially as I know of wrecks in Croatia where you MUST have AOW as a minimum. (but then, what does AOW mean?)
I have been diving for 3 years, and have logged about 120 dives. I now have AOW. I am certainly not the best diver on the planet, but the experience that I've collected is rather varied: cold water (the lakes here in Europe), Eygpt, Croatia, wrecks, night, deep etc., and I feel pretty confidant that I am a responsible buddy.
I know plenty of people who get all kinds of certifications in quite a brief time period, like during a vactaion to some lovely warm place, and would like to ask: if somebody hasnt had much practical experience, diving in various kinds of water, different conditions, etc. , what does it matter how "qualified" he is on paper? As I continue my diving eduction I want the skill levels that I earn to mean something, to others as well as to myself.
I'd be grateful to hear some opinions on this!

All a certification is a release of liability to the person selling you gas! It does not make you a diver, there were divers before certifications! The powers that be wanted to make sure people had the basics not to kill themselves on simple safe dives! Ones we take for granted today! I encourage you to dive more and seek training that will complement your diving! If you want to be a "Cave Diver" take that training and then do it it as much as you can, that will make you a better diver! But nothing takes the place of experience! Not even all the plaques on the wall or cards in the wallet!

Within recreational limits diving is one of the safest activities you can participate in with basic knowledge! Not everyone wants to be an astronaut, some are happy piloting a Cessna!

 

[Thalassamania]

An industry that rests on a lie will not long endure, and I fear that is the basic situation of the recreational diving industry today.

Spoken like a true Academic Elitist.

Oh ... that hurts.

The industry has been growing since the 60's BECAUSE of entrepreneurs taking risks and busting their butts to find a better way.... NOT Academic Elitist sitting in their cushy, tenured teaching jobs.

Show's you what you know. I've never been tenured in my life, people who work in university management don't get tenure. But in any case, where it not for the efforts of tenured faculty from the University of California system working hand in glove University manages and directors and graduate students diving as you know it would not exist.

Professor, before you belittle these early entrepreneurs of the diving industry, get your facts straight.

I knew (know) most all of these early entrepreneurs personally.

As a teacher (I read your profile) with any integrity, you should know this.

Should know what?

Secondly, an opinion based on ignorance is an ignorant opinion. Try standing in there shoes (business owners) and take a risk.... Make a payroll.....finding a real, Better Way. I personally knew a few of these fine men and they are NOT the con-men or crooks you make them out to be.

While there were a few true visionaries (Dick Bonin, Ralph Osterhout and Bob Hollis are are on that list) most were (at least from what I observed) primarily opportunists and/or marketeers.

They were men of vision and tenacity.

Perhaps I had a better view than you did. Perhaps you had a better view than I did. That's what makes horse races and renders name calling so, so stupid.

They had their short comings but ignorance or stupidity was not one of them. Professor, get off your high horse.

Randy
“We are limited only by our imagination and our willingness to make it a reality”

Not one of them, but perhaps two of them?

 

[Papa_Bear]

Thank gd we live in a free country, for a little while longer, and have personal responsibility taught to us in our school systems so we can make our own choices!

Next we will be asked to have a DMV employee drive around with us the first 25000 miles!

This thread scares the B-Jesus out of me that there are so many willing to throw the baby out with the bath water for another "Well run" government program! If you're a poor diver risking your life get more training, if you get in over your head by your own decision, don't look to blame anyone but you!

If we let the "Diving Elite" dictate SCUBA rules and regs we will not have SCUBA!

THIS IS A SAFE ACTIVITY AS LONG AS YOU UNDERSTAND THE PHYSICS AND UNDERSTAND YOU CAN'T BREATH WATER! Then EVERYTHING is up to YOU! Including your safety!

BTW, thank god for profit! It must be a good thing? The Government is always trying to take it away!

 

[RandyKowalski]

Professor, you are making my point. Name calling? Check your post.... It was YOU that questioned the integrity of the early entrepreneurs. Your pompous statements on this subject and others, clearly reveals that you are a Academic Elitist. I am not name calling, I am describing what I see. Example...SCUBA Diving WOULD have evolved with out the Universities because the early entrepreneurs saw an opportunity. What is wrong with opportunists and/or marketeers? Wouldn't Bob Hollis be considered in that group? I know Bob too.... I sold many of his products. He is an American success story. Only people like you in academia see these as bad or evil, because you live in a world that feeds off of those that produce. If it were not for grants, honorariums or tax dollars, you would have to get a real job. Problem is you would need a marketable degree, Zoology won,t cut it in the REAL world. Like I said, never took a risk, never had to MAKE a payroll. Thank goodness for the entrepreneurs or better yet the opportunists and/or marketeers. We build business, create jobs and grow the economy. Professor, get off your high horse.
Randy
“We are limited only by our imagination and our willingness to make it a reality”