What do you guys think of Steve Bogaert's Razor Harness?

[tbone1004]

My nomad has all of the padding taken off except the shoulder pads as well which don't add a whole lot of bulk. I undid the cinch straps on the shoulders and cut them way down as well so they don't dangle. It's really comfy now too where it seemed really cumbersome when I first got it.
I have my razor clone for monkeying around in the pool and used it some in the keys, but that's it, the rest of my stuff is cold water where the razor is not optimal

 

[Crock]

2) Why did you frame your question around the Razor and the Nomad in particular, considering what could be described as an explosion of availability of commercial SM rigs (e.g. Hollis, Armadillo, Oxycheq, OMS, Dragon, etc, and some other 'innovator available only' units as well), as well as adaptations of other rigs to SM, many of which are described in SB threads? Again, that is not intended as a negative question at all (nor am I disagreeing with your choices). Rather, I would be interested in your reasoning.

In my findings from streaming hundreds of youtube video and reading a thousand pages on forums, I found the top system for SM was the Nomad. So I put up the nomad against a system that looks and sounds simply and correctly engineered the razor. The razor seems to be a good system but my concern as it was mentioned on the forum is the lift factor. Need more lift for cold water steel. I am looking for something simple that I can use for wreck and just swimming around down south in the warm water. I am looking forward to see how Steve is going to add the wing to the razor while keeping a nice clean trim to it.

 

[Colliam7]

I found the top system for SM was the Nomad.

Thanks. I understand. The Nomad is probably the single most widely used SM rig. Who knows, if Steve had the DR distribution network available, maybe the Razor would have been.

My nomad has all of the padding taken off except the shoulder pads as well which don't add a whole lot of bulk. I undid the cinch straps on the shoulders and cut them way down as well so they don't dangle. It's really comfy now too where it seemed really cumbersome when I first got it.

I removed the shoulder pads as well, and haven't found any need to re-install them. I haven't cut down the shoulder straps (yet), though I have toyed with that idea ever since I got the unit. You make a good point - some people find the unit to be a bit 'bulky' or 'cumbersome' at first, particularly when you you put it on over a 3mm wetsuit.

I am looking for something simple that I can use for wreck and just swimming around down south in the warm water.

The Razor is certainly simple, which is what also attracted me to it at first. If you already use a backplate, have you looked at the OMS Profile? You can, of course, get an entire OMS rig, or you can simply (and inexpensively) add the soft plate, which works with an existing BP/W set-up.

I am looking forward to see how Steve is going to add the wing to the razor while keeping a nice clean trim to it.

As am I. I must admit, though, using a small hydration bladder as a wing is a pretty slick idea.

 

[gearhound]

The Nomad is great for cold water diving with steels. I haven't used my Razor in cold water yet, and am reluctant to. Steve says the ideal set up for him is the Razor, drysuit and LP104s. So I'm going to give it a try with some lp72s I just purchased. He did emphasize that the buoyancy characteristics with LPs are better than HPs.
My experience with the Razor: Love it! But I use it specifically for diving in Mexico. It's clean and simple. The hydration bladder puts the buoyancy exactly where you need it. It's so good, that it feels like your cheating. I'm negative in fresh water, so I use a 7mm suit though. When I was in my 5mm, the bladder was always full. Not the most streamlined profile.
The Nomad in warm water with aluminums really sucked. The bladder is just so huge. It seemed like I had to twist and turn a lot to get the air bubble exactly where I wanted it. After tightening the bungees quite a bit, I ended up switching to a travel bladder, which helped. But it definitely didn't feel as stable as the Razor. However, cold water with HP130s, I would definitely use the Nomad. I remember from Tec class, using my drysuit for the back-up buoyancy skills. There's a lot of places for that bubble to move. And if you look up, all that air is burping out of the latex neck seal.
I do prefer the Hollis SMS100. It seems a little more streamlined (but still has crap all over the place). The donut wing is nice for managing the bubble. With the inflator switched to the lower dump, it put the air where you want it (lower torso) when you inflate. You have to be careful with this arrangement with the Hollis though, as the dump valve up top will have a tendency to get jammed open. We added a shroud to avoid this problem.
The Armadillo is my preferred system for diving with steels. Very streamlined. All the lift that I need.
Also, if you already have a single wing bladder for you BP/W, you could look at using a Zeagle Express backplate and adding the Dive Rite buttplate. I dove this system a lot over the summer. Very clean, and easily adjustable for sizing.
I think the Steve's wing is going to be very similar to the UTD wing, or more accurately, the UTD wing is similar to what Steve was designing. When talking with Steve, and a couple of other people in Mexico, I got the impression that Steve trained a couple of UTD instructors in sidemount, and then they just copied his system (including proposed wing). Steve's wing is supposed to be ready this spring, so I'm looking forward that.

 

[Crock]

I will have to buy a whole new system. At the moment I don't have a set up. So i will be looking to start nice and clean. Don't have to worry about anything.

 

[cave heaven]

I think the Steve's wing is going to be very similar to the UTD wing, or more accurately, the UTD wing is similar to what Steve was designing. When talking with Steve, and a couple of other people in Mexico, I got the impression that Steve trained a couple of UTD instructors in sidemount, and then they just copied his system (including proposed wing). Steve's wing is supposed to be ready this spring, so I'm looking forward that.

We are the “couple of UTD instructors” you mention in your post - not difficult to work that one out.

You say “when talking to Steve.... they just copied his system”.

Please clarify - did Steve personally tell you we copied his system? We doubt it very much, for the following reasons.

We were among the first people Steve trained in the Razor harness and then, as now, there was an orally inflated device which we bought from an online outdoor store, as per Steve´s suggestion. We remember the Camelbak being a temporary stopgap while the “wing” was being developed/produced. The Camelbak has since been replaced by the MSR. Steve has never shown us anything resembling a “proper” wing for his harness, nor has anyone else. To our knowledge one just does not exist, nor has ever existed.

Second, you are comparing the UTD Z-system (including a wing with a power inflator for diving and a manifold system) with the Razor harness, which it was a great development but it is still just a harness.

Third, neither of us was involved in any of the UTD development stages until DEMA last November, when we made some suggestions to modify the UTD trim device and now we are working on the UTD cave sidemount classes with AG.

So, “we just copied his system (including proposed wing)” is false and anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant of the above or knowingly lying, it is as simple as that.

The fact of the matter is that the only trim device on the market now is the UTD one, so anything else that comes out will be a “copy” of that.

One last thing - can you put your real name to your posts so we know who we are talking with?


dive safely,

 

[rjack321]

I will have to buy a whole new system. At the moment I don't have a set up. So i will be looking to start nice and clean. Don't have to worry about anything.

You are going to need 2 systems. The cleanest slickest system in MX will not do big steels and deco bottles at home and the big steel deco bottle wings will be rediculous on a 45ffw dive with Al80s and a 5mm wetsuit in 78F water.

This is like those folks who want one wing for double 130s and the next day with a single 72 - it won't work well (or at all) for either application.

 

[LiteHedded]

We are the “couple of UTD instructors” you mention in your post - not difficult to work that one out.

You say “when talking to Steve.... they just copied his system”.

Please clarify - did Steve personally tell you we copied his system? We doubt it very much, for the following reasons.

We were among the first people Steve trained in the Razor harness and then, as now, there was an orally inflated device which we bought from an online outdoor store, as per Steve´s suggestion. We remember the Camelbak being a temporary stopgap while the “wing” was being developed/produced. The Camelbak has since been replaced by the MSR. Steve has never shown us anything resembling a “proper” wing for his harness, nor has anyone else. To our knowledge one just does not exist, nor has ever existed.

Second, you are comparing the UTD Z-system (including a wing with a power inflator for diving and a manifold system) with the Razor harness, which it was a great development but it is still just a harness.

Third, neither of us was involved in any of the UTD development stages until DEMA last November, when we made some suggestions to modify the UTD trim device and now we are working on the UTD cave sidemount classes with AG.

So, “we just copied his system (including proposed wing)” is false and anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant of the above or knowingly lying, it is as simple as that.

The fact of the matter is that the only trim device on the market now is the UTD one, so anything else that comes out will be a “copy” of that.

One last thing - can you put your real name to your posts so we know who we are talking with?


dive safely,

I don't understand this. why do people on scuba forums not understand how the internet works? if people wanted to be known by their real name on the internet they would use that for their username. also your font is hard to read.

cheers.

 

[mdax]

Wife and i love our Nomads for Florida and they work just fine in Mexico. However late next year we'll be traveling to the Yucatan to get a couple razor harnesses and classes from Steve, hope he gets a better wing system by then.

 

[DwayneJ]

The fact of the matter is that the only trim device on the market now is the UTD one, so anything else that comes out will be a “copy” of that.

One last thing - can you put your real name to your posts so we know who we are talking with?

You can check your UTD records to confirm Dwayne in Redondo Beach did a little business with UTD and I had registered with UTD with plans for future instruction. That post pretty much finishes my relationship with UTD.

Dwayne (which is my real name)